[tyndale-devel] Fwd: tyndale-devel post from technical at tyndale.cam.ac.uk requires approval

David Instone-Brewer Technical at Tyndale.cam.ac.uk
Mon Nov 19 05:38:49 MST 2012

>As I thought, the number of double tags in the 
>OT is worse than the NT, though not as huge as I thought.
>The total number of double tags is 2444 which includes about 35 treble tags
>I thought that most of these would involve 
>'minor' words, like in the NT, but these words 
>only account for a small number:
>H853 (eth) = 18 (all = 1st tag
>H3588 (ki that) = 3 (1 = 1st tag)
>H996 (bin - in) 2 (1st = 1)
>H413 (al - to)  5 (1st = 0)
>H834 (asher -  which) 14 (1st = 4)
>H3605, H3606 (kol – all ) 7 (1st = 7)
>H5921 (al - on ) 1 (1st = 0)
>H4480  (min - from)  2 (1st =0)
>H3651 (ken -  thus), 5 (1st = 3)
>Duplication = 223  (ie the same word repeated for emphasis)
>H00 405  (H00 indicates that the word has been 
>already named, so this isn't really a double tag)
>The OSMHB appears to have a different attitude 
>to these double tags, so the tagging becomes broken.
>A good example text to test is 1Kings 7.15 which 
>has three double tags and one due to a repeated word
>$$$I Kings 7:15
><w lemma="strong:H06696" 
>morph="strongMorph:TH8799">For he cast</w> <w 
>lemma="strong:H08147">two</w> <w 
>lemma="strong:H05982">pillars</w> <w 
>lemma="strong:H05178">of brass</w>, <w 
>lemma="strong:H06240 strong:H08083">of 
>eighteen</w> <w lemma="strong:H0520">cubits</w> 
><w lemma="strong:H06967">high</w> <w 
>lemma="strong:H0259 strong:H05982">apiece</w>: 
><w lemma="strong:H02339">and a line</w> <w 
>lemma="strong:H06240 strong:H08147">of 
>twelve</w> <w lemma="strong:H0520">cubits</w> <w 
>lemma="strong:H00 strong:H05437">did compass</w> 
><w lemma="strong:H08145">either</w> <w 
>morph="strongMorph:TH8799">of them 
>about</w>.<note type="study">cast: Heb. fashioned</note>
>David IB
>>I just checked on the size of the problem. It 
>>isn't huge, though the OT  is much more difficult,
>>so it is worth working out how to do things in 
>>the NT to get them right in the OT.
>>In the NT we have 14169 double-tags, but 14116 
>>of these have G3588 as the first tag (ie "the" which we are ignoring)
>>When you exclude 3588 we are left with 53 
>>double-tags (a few more than 14169-14116 cos of treble-tags)
>>These occur in 39 verses in the NT.
>>Mark 2.18-26 is a good passage: v.18x1, 19x3, 21x1, 22x1, 23x1, 26x2
>>So Mark 2.19 is a good example:
>>And Jesus said unto them, Can the children of 
>>the bridechamber fast, while the bridegroom is 
>>with them? As long as they have the bridegroom with them, they can not fast.
>>Another verse with 3 examples is Mk.9.42
>>And whosoever shall offend one of these little 
>>ones that believe in me, it is better for him 
>>that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.
>>This example is particularly good cos it has:
>>whosoever - an example of two tiny words which 
>>don't translate well separately - ie ean "if" and hos "which"
>>better - two words which are separated in the 
>>Greek, kalos "good" and mallon "more"
>>millstone - the Greek is made of two words like 
>>the English used to be, milikos "mill" and lithos "stone".
>>It would be great if the display could visually depict these links, eg:
>>kalon  | estin |   autw  |  mallon   | ei  |  perikeitai |  lithos | mulikos
>>better | it is | for him |  [better] |that | were hanged |     millstone
>>it is   |      better      |  for him  |  that 
>>|    a millstone   | were hanged
>>estin   |  kalon | 
>>mallon  |    autw   |   ei  | lithos | mulikos |  perikeitai
>>However, I have no idea how you would do this!
>>as  to the glosses, what about:
>>it is   |      better      |  for him   |  that 
>>|    a millstone    | were hanged
>>estin   |  kalon | 
>>mallon  |    autw    |   ei  | lithos | mulikos  |  perikeitai
>>be   |  good  |  more   |he/her/-self|   if  | 
>>stone | millstone| to surround
>>Note that I've changed "I am" to "to be".
>>I've also changed "he/himself/here" [typo!]  to "he/her/-self"
>>(I'm going to have to go through these glosses!)
>>So, wrt your original question, what about: stone | millstone
>>This will allow for things like to do/make |  quickly
>>(though I have no idea if anything like this will occur.
>>I don't know if you can do anything with the 
>>additional challenge of displaying these double-tags clearly.
>>David IB
>>At 14:20 17/11/2012, Chris Burrell wrote:
>>>Hi David
>>>Could we standardise the typography when we 
>>>have several options for our "one-word" 
>>>lexicon entries. Instead of having it with 
>>>both commas and slashes. Let's go for slashes with no spaces.
>>>This will allow us to do [word1, word2] for double tagged words.
>>>tyndale-devel mailing list
>>><mailto:tyndale-devel at crosswire.org>tyndale-devel at crosswire.org
>>tyndale-devel mailing list
>><mailto:tyndale-devel at crosswire.org>tyndale-devel at crosswire.org
>David IB
>///   Dr David Instone-Brewer
>dib   Senior Research Fellow in Rabbinics and the New Testament
>  ^    Tyndale House, 36 Selwyn Gardens, Cambridge, CB3 9BA, UK
><mailto:Rabbinics at Tyndale.cam.ac.uk>Rabbinics at Tyndale.cam.ac.uk 
>---------- Forwarded message ----------
><mailto:tyndale-devel-request at crosswire.org>tyndale-devel-request at crosswire.org
>Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2012 04:16:20 -0700
>Subject: confirm e043248c66a7e3e42f61976e94dc101746f86941
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David IB

///   Dr David Instone-Brewer
dib   Senior Research Fellow in Rabbinics and the New Testament
  ^    Tyndale House, 36 Selwyn Gardens, Cambridge, CB3 9BA, UK
\=/   Rabbinics at Tyndale.cam.ac.uk      www.TyndaleHouse.com
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