[tyndale-devel] double-tags

Mon Nov 19 07:18:07 MST 2012

Dear Chris

As I thought, the number of double tags in the OT 
is worse than the NT, though not as huge as I thought.

The total number of double tags is 2444 which includes about 35 treble tags
I thought that most of these would involve 
'minor' words, like in the NT, but these words 
only account for a small number:
H853 (eth) = 18 (all = 1st tag
H3588 (ki that) = 3 (1 = 1st tag)
H996 (bin - in) 2 (1st = 1)
H413 (al - to)  5 (1st = 0)
H834 (asher -  which) 14 (1st = 4)
H3605, H3606 (kol – all ) 7 (1st = 7)
H5921 (al - on ) 1 (1st = 0)
H4480  (min - from)  2 (1st =0)
H3651 (ken -  thus), 5 (1st = 3)

Duplication = 223  (ie the same word repeated for emphasis)
H00 405  (H00 indicates that the word has been 
already named, so this isn't really a double tag)

The OSMHB appears to have a different attitude to 
these double tags, so the tagging becomes broken.

A good example text to test is 1Kings 7.15 which 
has three double tags and one due to a repeated word
$$$I Kings 7:15
<w lemma="strong:H06696" 
morph="strongMorph:TH8799">For he cast</w> <w 
lemma="strong:H08147">two</w> <w 
lemma="strong:H05982">pillars</w> <w 
lemma="strong:H05178">of brass</w>, <w 
lemma="strong:H06240 strong:H08083">of 
eighteen</w> <w lemma="strong:H0520">cubits</w> 
<w lemma="strong:H06967">high</w> <w 
lemma="strong:H0259 strong:H05982">apiece</w>: <w 
lemma="strong:H02339">and a line</w> <w 
lemma="strong:H06240 strong:H08147">of twelve</w> 
<w lemma="strong:H0520">cubits</w> <w 
lemma="strong:H00 strong:H05437">did compass</w> 
<w lemma="strong:H08145">either</w> <w 
lemma="strong:H05437" 
morph="strongMorph:TH8799">of them 
about</w>.<note type="study">cast: Heb. fashioned</note>

David IB

>I just checked on the size of the problem. It 
>isn't huge, though the OT  is much more difficult,
>so it is worth working out how to do things in 
>the NT to get them right in the OT.
>In the NT we have 14169 double-tags, but 14116 
>of these have G3588 as the first tag (ie "the" which we are ignoring)
>When you exclude 3588 we are left with 53 
>double-tags (a few more than 14169-14116 cos of treble-tags)
>These occur in 39 verses in the NT.
>Mark 2.18-26 is a good passage: v.18x1, 19x3, 21x1, 22x1, 23x1, 26x2
>So Mark 2.19 is a good example:
>And Jesus said unto them, Can the children of 
>the bridechamber fast, while the bridegroom is 
>with them? As long as they have the bridegroom with them, they can not fast.
>Another verse with 3 examples is Mk.9.42
>And whosoever shall offend one of these little 
>ones that believe in me, it is better for him 
>that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.
>This example is particularly good cos it has:
>whosoever - an example of two tiny words which 
>don't translate well separately - ie ean "if" and hos "which"
>better - two words which are separated in the 
>Greek, kalos "good" and mallon "more"
>millstone - the Greek is made of two words like 
>the English used to be, milikos "mill" and lithos "stone".
>
>It would be great if the display could visually depict these links, eg:
>
>kalon  | estin |   autw  |  mallon   | ei  |  perikeitai |  lithos | mulikos
>better | it is | for him |  [better] |that | were hanged |     millstone
>
>
>it is   |      better      |  for him  |  that 
>|    a millstone   | were hanged
>estin   |  kalon | mallon  |    autw   |   ei  | 
>lithos | mulikos |  perikeitai
>
>However, I have no idea how you would do this!
>
>as  to the glosses, what about:
>
>it is   |      better      |  for him   |  that 
>|    a millstone    | were hanged
>estin   |  kalon | 
>mallon  |    autw    |   ei  | lithos | mulikos  |  perikeitai
>to 
>be   |  good  |  more   |he/her/-self|   if  | 
>stone | millstone| to surround
>
>Note that I've changed "I am" to "to be".
>I've also changed "he/himself/here" [typo!]  to "he/her/-self"
>(I'm going to have to go through these glosses!)
>
>So, wrt your original question, what about: stone | millstone
>This will allow for things like to do/make |  quickly
>(though I have no idea if anything like this will occur.
>
>I don't know if you can do anything with the 
>additional challenge of displaying these double-tags clearly.
>
>David IB
>
>
>At 14:20 17/11/2012, Chris Burrell wrote:
>>Hi David
>>
>>Could we standardise the typography when we 
>>have several options for our "one-word" lexicon 
>>entries. Instead of having it with both commas 
>>and slashes. Let's go for slashes with no spaces.
>>
>>This will allow us to do [word1, word2] for double tagged words.
>>
>>Chris
>>
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David IB

///   Dr David Instone-Brewer
dib   Senior Research Fellow in Rabbinics and the New Testament
  ^    Tyndale House, 36 Selwyn Gardens, Cambridge, CB3 9BA, UK
\=/   Rabbinics at Tyndale.cam.ac.uk      www.TyndaleHouse.com
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David IB

///   Dr David Instone-Brewer
dib   Senior Research Fellow in Rabbinics and the New Testament
  ^    Tyndale House, 36 Selwyn Gardens, Cambridge, CB3 9BA, UK
\=/   Rabbinics at Tyndale.cam.ac.uk      www.TyndaleHouse.com
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