[sword-devel] French Bible Segond 1910 with Strong's number

Wed Nov 6 10:36:34 EST 2024

And there now appear to be several editions available from the Digital
Bible Library (the source for both Michael and my editions.)  I don't know
from which I started without text checking...

https://thedigitalbiblelibrary.org/whats-inside/

To see the editions, search for "Segond"... there isn't an easy way to
share the search result.

On Wed, Nov 6, 2024 at 9:26 AM Michael H <cmahte at gmail.com> wrote:

> And this is the work from Michael Johnson's ebible.org
>
> https://ebible.org/Scriptures/details.php?id=fraLSG
>
> On Wed, Nov 6, 2024 at 9:25 AM Michael H <cmahte at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> FYI:
>>
>> I made a French Segond which contains much peripheral text (longer
>> titles, second titles, cross references, etc.) in addition to the
>> scripture.  It's based on the UBS source (meaning as far as I know it's
>> based on the actual editions printed by the United Bible Society since
>> 1910, and not on OCR / Internet editions.) If I remember correctly, my
>> specific reason for hosting it was that I removed the Strongs numbering.
>> Besides that, I think I renamed some weird markers related to a 4th or 5th
>> level of section title in one or more of the books.
>>
>> Which leads me to think that Michael Johnson probably currently has
>> access and hosts an LSG which is a more direct port of the UBS text that
>> still contains Strongs numbering, and IS the versification of the original.
>>
>> (my (for print and reading) edition, in USFM)
>>
>> https://github.com/BibleCorps/FRA-B-LSG1910-PD-UBS/blob/main/p.sfm/FRA%5BB%5DLSG1910%5BPD%5DUBS-01-GEN.p.sfm
>>
>> Michael Johnson's LSG edition with Strongs numbering
>>
>> https://github.com/BibleCorps/FRA-B-LSG1910-PD-UBS/blob/main/p.sfm/FRA%5BB%5DLSG1910%5BPD%5DUBS-01-GEN.p.sfm
>>
>> If these texts have issues, please mention it here, because the UBS
>> should know.
>>
>> On Wed, Nov 6, 2024 at 7:33 AM Arnaud Vié <unas.zole+avie at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> I support Cyrille's suggestion of using wikisource as the main source
>>> for public domain bibles when we have a good facsimile available.
>>>
>>> For those not familiar with how wikisource works, the idea is that one
>>> can upload a facsimile (in djvu format), and then users can transcribe it
>>> into text and correct it page by page, making it easy to compare and
>>> potentially fix.
>>> See for example this view, on one specific page of the Segond 1910, with
>>> the facsimile on the right and the transcribed text on the left :
>>> https://fr.wikisource.org/wiki/Page:La_Sainte_Bible,_trad._Segond,_ed._1910.djvu/8
>>> Each page can be edited, then reviewed, corrected, and so on - and the
>>> wiki setup makes it easy to collaborate.
>>> There is even the possibility with dedicated markup to annotate
>>> corrections to the original text : when the original text contains an
>>> obvious typo that you want to fix, you can edit your fix in while
>>> preserving the original text with specific markup, so that the document
>>> still keeps track of the original form and what was corrected.
>>>
>>> Then, proper markup while transcribing the text allows wikisource to
>>> group it as proper books and chapters, format the text, integrate notes,
>>> etc.
>>> See the full bible index here :
>>> https://fr.wikisource.org/wiki/Livre:La_Sainte_Bible,_trad._Segond,_ed._1910.djvu
>>> With the index page by page on the left, and the reconstructed text
>>> index by book on the right.
>>>
>>> And then, as long as you ensure that your markup is consistent
>>> throughout your transcription of all pages of the same text (eg. titles of
>>> the same level are transcribed with the same markup, etc.), it is easy
>>> enough with my bible scraper to fetch all the books from wikisource and
>>> convert them into USFM or OSIS - as nicely advertised by Cyrille and Matěj
>>> above.
>>> Which means that if anyone brought some corrections to the wikisource
>>> text over time, you can just re-run the scraper to get an updated USFM/OSIS
>>> document with these corrections - you don't need to maintain your own
>>> document separately.
>>>
>>> The only question is how you intend to handle Strong's numbers, since
>>> they are not present in the original facsimile (at least not the one
>>> present on wikisource), and therefore not stored in wikisource.
>>> This means my scraper can only output a document without Strong's
>>> numbers, and you'd have to inject them in post processing with another tool
>>> - but from your message above it seems you already have what you need for
>>> this.
>>>
>>> If you want to try going into this direction, I can easily write a small
>>> scraper configuration file for the Segond version currently available on
>>> wikisource so that you can try it out.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> Arnaud
>>>
>>> Le mer. 6 nov. 2024 à 09:27, Fr Cyrille <fr.cyrille at tiberiade.be> a
>>> écrit :
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Le 06/11/2024 à 00:48, yvand a écrit :
>>>>
>>>> Thank you all for your answers!
>>>>
>>>> I think if we can get the text (which is in public domain) from a
>>>> well-known bible editor, it is interesting and easier. Currently the
>>>> version Segond 1910 exists in different versions (differences in
>>>> notes/titles, maybe also in accents Ésaü/Esaü ?) and it is interesting to
>>>> know to what it corresponds. We can still share typos upstream or/and use a
>>>> patch to fix typos, and update wikisource text.
>>>>
>>>> If wikisource is the source, we need to know if and what paper edition
>>>> it matches exactly. If the reader can refer to a paper edition, it is
>>>> interesting. From where will come the text and notes in wikisource? Which
>>>> choices for notes/titles?
>>>>
>>>> Personally, I don't know, but you can check for yourself if the
>>>> facsimile
>>>> <https://fr.wikisource.org/wiki/Fichier:La_Sainte_Bible,_trad._Segond,_ed._1910.djvu>
>>>> is correct. I know that a contributor has searched long and hard for this
>>>> facsimile. I sincerely think that wikisource is the best place. We no
>>>> longer need to ask anyone for the right to use the text (even in the public
>>>> domain). What's more, Matej beat me to it: Arnaud's tool is absolutely
>>>> incredible in its ability to convert to usfm or osis. I invite you to try
>>>> it out. What's more, Arnaud is very responsive and saved me a lot of work.
>>>> I now have 3 bibles in French on wikisource, the Glaire, the Giguet and the
>>>> Crampon.
>>>>
>>>> Now the text on wikisource only has the titles for some books. It
>>>> remains to add the notes/crossreferences. But if you have a text with
>>>> notes, it can be quite easy to download the wiki text and add the notes.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> https://fr.wikisource.org/wiki/Livre:La_Sainte_Bible,_trad._Segond,_ed._1910.djvu
>>>>
>>>> Personally, I found domcox's proposition interesting.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I connected to DBL and found 2 different projects :
>>>>
>>>> - "Français Louis Segond 1910" (last archive 2020-12-15)
>>>>
>>>> - "Louis Segond 1910 Original Corrected (Public Domain version)" (last
>>>> archive 2024-08-01) ("La Sainte Bible par Louis Segond 1910. Société
>>>> Biblique britannique et étrangere. Texte historique, références corrigées
>>>> en 2019." "Ce qu'il y a de nouveau dans l'édition actuelle, ce sont surtout
>>>> les parallèles. Là où ces parallèles rendaient superflues les notes de M.
>>>> Segond, celles-ci ont été supprimées. De meme, les notes qui exprimaient
>>>> une opinion théologique, ou qui présentaient un commentairs sur le texte,
>>>> ont été laissés de cote, conformement aux statuts de la Société, qui
>>>> excluent de ses éditions de Écritures des notes de ce genre.")
>>>>
>>>> Both are published by British & Foreign Bible Society
>>>>
>>>> But the access seem not public. As this Bible is in public domain, I
>>>> guess they will share with us if we ask.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Maybe Michael can help us to how the source of his module and how he
>>>> did it? Is it based on DBL? If so which project and what tool do you use?
>>>> from USX or USFM export?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> For versification, I agree with domcox's remark, we can keep the
>>>> original versification. I can convert from our versification (WLC for OT /
>>>> NA for NT) to the segond versification with a script.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> If we go that way, I guess we need to do those steps:
>>>>
>>>> 1. Access DBL, export data (text, notes, titles if present) in USX or
>>>> USFM from Paratext
>>>>
>>>> 2. Convert to OSIS (better for sword and required because USX and USFM
>>>> do not support Strong's number, isn't it ?)
>>>>
>>>> 3. Add Strong's numbers (= add <w> tags on words) : for this, I can
>>>> work to match exactly the text from the previous OSIS in our database, and
>>>> develop a tool to add the last version of our Strong's numbers on it.
>>>>
>>>> 4. Update sword module
>>>>
>>>> The last two steps (3. and 4.) will be regularly relaunched, because we
>>>> do corrections on Strong's numbers regurlarly. It is still a work in
>>>> progress, but I think the work is already not so not too bad.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> @Fr Cyrille : We need to exchange by email (not here) if and how we can
>>>> help you to add Strong's numbers on your néo-crampon version. Our initial
>>>> assignment tool (for Strong's numbers) has gathered dust and requires
>>>> french lemmatization and proper versification versions with the WLC or NA
>>>> to be effective. Can you send me a mail in French, with more details (what
>>>> is this new version? is it close to other French versions other than
>>>> Crampon? what is the actual format you use? which versification?…).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> yvand
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Le 05/11/2024 à 19:38, domcox a écrit :
>>>>
>>>> yvand <yvand.sword at gmail.com> <yvand.sword at gmail.com> writes:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> For Segond 1910, the text is in public domain. I used mod2imp to get
>>>> the text from the FreSegond (Crosswire) module months
>>>> ago. The only changes we made are about versification. Indeed all our
>>>> texts use the same versification (based on WLC, for OT =
>>>> German in sword), so the text matches the original (hebrew WLC or greek
>>>> MT/WH) one and we can easily compare
>>>> translations.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> As lot of people still read the printed French Segond 1910 or
>>>> derivatives, I think it's very important to match the printed
>>>> versification. Regular readers generally view Bible software with not
>>>> matching versifications as second-rate software.
>>>> We have a matching Bible Segond versification, let's keep it that way.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> In the past, the FreLSG module had Strong's numbers. If I am correct
>>>> (see discussion "Strong numbers for Louis Segond" in
>>>> 2013/07), we do not have the authorization (but still available in
>>>> STEP) so this module has been removed or replaced by
>>>> FreSegond module (renamed ?).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> In the past, the FreLSG had Strong's numbers. It was upgraded later to
>>>> a new version that was horrible, filled with errors
>>>> and even containing deuteros that never existed in the Segond Bible.
>>>>
>>>> This is why I made the FreSegond module, it was not an easy task. The
>>>> Segond Bible is everywhere on the Web, but it looks like
>>>> all sites use the same source, and it's not accurate.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The fraLSG1910eb (F10) module is a more recent one, available in
>>>> e-bible repo with headings, WoC and Strong's numbers. It
>>>> seems to be a work in progress for Strong's numbers. They are not
>>>> available for all books. I compare Strong's numbers
>>>> affectations for the first verses of Genesis 1 (see attached
>>>> screenshot) but there are errors in this module. On the left this
>>>> module, on the right our data (https://concordance.bible/Sg1910/Gen/1/).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> If I remember well, Michael have access to the DBL, so his module is
>>>> certainly based on the official Public Domain version,
>>>> edited by the Alliance Biblique Française (
>>>> https://lire.la-bible.net/bible/LSG/GEN.1)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> So I contact all of you (especially actual maintainers of Segond 1910
>>>> modules and French users) what would be the
>>>> best way of giving our Strong's numbers for Segond 1910 in a sword
>>>> module. I don't know who is concerned or interested
>>>> that's why I send to the mailing list.
>>>>
>>>> As there is already many existing Segond 1910 sword module, it guess it
>>>> would not be a good idea of creating a new one. On
>>>> one side, as our text is based from FreSegond module, it might be a
>>>> good idea of updating this module with Strong's numbers
>>>> (the only difference is versification). On the other hand, the
>>>> fraLSG1910eb module offers Strong's numbers but our data seems
>>>> more accurate and complete, so it could be interesting of updating this
>>>> module. In any case, it would be important to submit
>>>> updates regularly for Strong's numbers.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I think the best option for this module should be:
>>>>
>>>> 1. Have access to the DBL version
>>>> 2. Update the current CrossWire module from that source with footnotes,
>>>> comments and cross-references, keeping the original versification
>>>> 3. Add Strong's numbers
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> sword-devel mailing list: sword-devel at crosswire.orghttp://crosswire.org/mailman/listinfo/sword-devel
>>>> Instructions to unsubscribe/change your settings at above page
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Vous aimez la Bible ? Vous êtes étudiant en théologie ? Utilisez
>>>> l'application libre Xiphos <https://xiphos.org/> ou Andbible
>>>> <https://andbible.github.io/> et accédez aux textes sources, à des
>>>> commentaires, des dictionnaires et beaucoup d'autres fonctionnalités... Me
>>>> contacter pour des traductions en français.
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> sword-devel mailing list: sword-devel at crosswire.org
>>>> http://crosswire.org/mailman/listinfo/sword-devel
>>>> Instructions to unsubscribe/change your settings at above page
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> sword-devel mailing list: sword-devel at crosswire.org
>>> http://crosswire.org/mailman/listinfo/sword-devel
>>> Instructions to unsubscribe/change your settings at above page
>>>
>>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://crosswire.org/pipermail/sword-devel/attachments/20241106/d94e3481/attachment-0001.htm>