[sword-devel] French Bible Segond 1910 with Strong's number

Wed Nov 6 10:26:55 EST 2024

And this is the work from Michael Johnson's ebible.org

https://ebible.org/Scriptures/details.php?id=fraLSG

On Wed, Nov 6, 2024 at 9:25 AM Michael H <cmahte at gmail.com> wrote:

> FYI:
>
> I made a French Segond which contains much peripheral text (longer titles,
> second titles, cross references, etc.) in addition to the scripture.  It's
> based on the UBS source (meaning as far as I know it's based on the actual
> editions printed by the United Bible Society since 1910, and not on OCR /
> Internet editions.) If I remember correctly, my specific reason for hosting
> it was that I removed the Strongs numbering. Besides that, I think I
> renamed some weird markers related to a 4th or 5th level of section title
> in one or more of the books.
>
> Which leads me to think that Michael Johnson probably currently has access
> and hosts an LSG which is a more direct port of the UBS text that still
> contains Strongs numbering, and IS the versification of the original.
>
> (my (for print and reading) edition, in USFM)
>
> https://github.com/BibleCorps/FRA-B-LSG1910-PD-UBS/blob/main/p.sfm/FRA%5BB%5DLSG1910%5BPD%5DUBS-01-GEN.p.sfm
>
> Michael Johnson's LSG edition with Strongs numbering
>
> https://github.com/BibleCorps/FRA-B-LSG1910-PD-UBS/blob/main/p.sfm/FRA%5BB%5DLSG1910%5BPD%5DUBS-01-GEN.p.sfm
>
> If these texts have issues, please mention it here, because the UBS should
> know.
>
> On Wed, Nov 6, 2024 at 7:33 AM Arnaud Vié <unas.zole+avie at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I support Cyrille's suggestion of using wikisource as the main source for
>> public domain bibles when we have a good facsimile available.
>>
>> For those not familiar with how wikisource works, the idea is that one
>> can upload a facsimile (in djvu format), and then users can transcribe it
>> into text and correct it page by page, making it easy to compare and
>> potentially fix.
>> See for example this view, on one specific page of the Segond 1910, with
>> the facsimile on the right and the transcribed text on the left :
>> https://fr.wikisource.org/wiki/Page:La_Sainte_Bible,_trad._Segond,_ed._1910.djvu/8
>> Each page can be edited, then reviewed, corrected, and so on - and the
>> wiki setup makes it easy to collaborate.
>> There is even the possibility with dedicated markup to annotate
>> corrections to the original text : when the original text contains an
>> obvious typo that you want to fix, you can edit your fix in while
>> preserving the original text with specific markup, so that the document
>> still keeps track of the original form and what was corrected.
>>
>> Then, proper markup while transcribing the text allows wikisource to
>> group it as proper books and chapters, format the text, integrate notes,
>> etc.
>> See the full bible index here :
>> https://fr.wikisource.org/wiki/Livre:La_Sainte_Bible,_trad._Segond,_ed._1910.djvu
>> With the index page by page on the left, and the reconstructed text index
>> by book on the right.
>>
>> And then, as long as you ensure that your markup is consistent throughout
>> your transcription of all pages of the same text (eg. titles of the same
>> level are transcribed with the same markup, etc.), it is easy enough with
>> my bible scraper to fetch all the books from wikisource and convert them
>> into USFM or OSIS - as nicely advertised by Cyrille and Matěj above.
>> Which means that if anyone brought some corrections to the wikisource
>> text over time, you can just re-run the scraper to get an updated USFM/OSIS
>> document with these corrections - you don't need to maintain your own
>> document separately.
>>
>> The only question is how you intend to handle Strong's numbers, since
>> they are not present in the original facsimile (at least not the one
>> present on wikisource), and therefore not stored in wikisource.
>> This means my scraper can only output a document without Strong's
>> numbers, and you'd have to inject them in post processing with another tool
>> - but from your message above it seems you already have what you need for
>> this.
>>
>> If you want to try going into this direction, I can easily write a small
>> scraper configuration file for the Segond version currently available on
>> wikisource so that you can try it out.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Arnaud
>>
>> Le mer. 6 nov. 2024 à 09:27, Fr Cyrille <fr.cyrille at tiberiade.be> a
>> écrit :
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Le 06/11/2024 à 00:48, yvand a écrit :
>>>
>>> Thank you all for your answers!
>>>
>>> I think if we can get the text (which is in public domain) from a
>>> well-known bible editor, it is interesting and easier. Currently the
>>> version Segond 1910 exists in different versions (differences in
>>> notes/titles, maybe also in accents Ésaü/Esaü ?) and it is interesting to
>>> know to what it corresponds. We can still share typos upstream or/and use a
>>> patch to fix typos, and update wikisource text.
>>>
>>> If wikisource is the source, we need to know if and what paper edition
>>> it matches exactly. If the reader can refer to a paper edition, it is
>>> interesting. From where will come the text and notes in wikisource? Which
>>> choices for notes/titles?
>>>
>>> Personally, I don't know, but you can check for yourself if the
>>> facsimile
>>> <https://fr.wikisource.org/wiki/Fichier:La_Sainte_Bible,_trad._Segond,_ed._1910.djvu>
>>> is correct. I know that a contributor has searched long and hard for this
>>> facsimile. I sincerely think that wikisource is the best place. We no
>>> longer need to ask anyone for the right to use the text (even in the public
>>> domain). What's more, Matej beat me to it: Arnaud's tool is absolutely
>>> incredible in its ability to convert to usfm or osis. I invite you to try
>>> it out. What's more, Arnaud is very responsive and saved me a lot of work.
>>> I now have 3 bibles in French on wikisource, the Glaire, the Giguet and the
>>> Crampon.
>>>
>>> Now the text on wikisource only has the titles for some books. It
>>> remains to add the notes/crossreferences. But if you have a text with
>>> notes, it can be quite easy to download the wiki text and add the notes.
>>>
>>>
>>> https://fr.wikisource.org/wiki/Livre:La_Sainte_Bible,_trad._Segond,_ed._1910.djvu
>>>
>>> Personally, I found domcox's proposition interesting.
>>>
>>>
>>> I connected to DBL and found 2 different projects :
>>>
>>> - "Français Louis Segond 1910" (last archive 2020-12-15)
>>>
>>> - "Louis Segond 1910 Original Corrected (Public Domain version)" (last
>>> archive 2024-08-01) ("La Sainte Bible par Louis Segond 1910. Société
>>> Biblique britannique et étrangere. Texte historique, références corrigées
>>> en 2019." "Ce qu'il y a de nouveau dans l'édition actuelle, ce sont surtout
>>> les parallèles. Là où ces parallèles rendaient superflues les notes de M.
>>> Segond, celles-ci ont été supprimées. De meme, les notes qui exprimaient
>>> une opinion théologique, ou qui présentaient un commentairs sur le texte,
>>> ont été laissés de cote, conformement aux statuts de la Société, qui
>>> excluent de ses éditions de Écritures des notes de ce genre.")
>>>
>>> Both are published by British & Foreign Bible Society
>>>
>>> But the access seem not public. As this Bible is in public domain, I
>>> guess they will share with us if we ask.
>>>
>>>
>>> Maybe Michael can help us to how the source of his module and how he did
>>> it? Is it based on DBL? If so which project and what tool do you use? from
>>> USX or USFM export?
>>>
>>>
>>> For versification, I agree with domcox's remark, we can keep the
>>> original versification. I can convert from our versification (WLC for OT /
>>> NA for NT) to the segond versification with a script.
>>>
>>>
>>> If we go that way, I guess we need to do those steps:
>>>
>>> 1. Access DBL, export data (text, notes, titles if present) in USX or
>>> USFM from Paratext
>>>
>>> 2. Convert to OSIS (better for sword and required because USX and USFM
>>> do not support Strong's number, isn't it ?)
>>>
>>> 3. Add Strong's numbers (= add <w> tags on words) : for this, I can work
>>> to match exactly the text from the previous OSIS in our database, and
>>> develop a tool to add the last version of our Strong's numbers on it.
>>>
>>> 4. Update sword module
>>>
>>> The last two steps (3. and 4.) will be regularly relaunched, because we
>>> do corrections on Strong's numbers regurlarly. It is still a work in
>>> progress, but I think the work is already not so not too bad.
>>>
>>>
>>> @Fr Cyrille : We need to exchange by email (not here) if and how we can
>>> help you to add Strong's numbers on your néo-crampon version. Our initial
>>> assignment tool (for Strong's numbers) has gathered dust and requires
>>> french lemmatization and proper versification versions with the WLC or NA
>>> to be effective. Can you send me a mail in French, with more details (what
>>> is this new version? is it close to other French versions other than
>>> Crampon? what is the actual format you use? which versification?…).
>>>
>>>
>>> yvand
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Le 05/11/2024 à 19:38, domcox a écrit :
>>>
>>> yvand <yvand.sword at gmail.com> <yvand.sword at gmail.com> writes:
>>>
>>>
>>> For Segond 1910, the text is in public domain. I used mod2imp to get the
>>> text from the FreSegond (Crosswire) module months
>>> ago. The only changes we made are about versification. Indeed all our
>>> texts use the same versification (based on WLC, for OT =
>>> German in sword), so the text matches the original (hebrew WLC or greek
>>> MT/WH) one and we can easily compare
>>> translations.
>>>
>>>
>>> As lot of people still read the printed French Segond 1910 or
>>> derivatives, I think it's very important to match the printed
>>> versification. Regular readers generally view Bible software with not
>>> matching versifications as second-rate software.
>>> We have a matching Bible Segond versification, let's keep it that way.
>>>
>>>
>>> In the past, the FreLSG module had Strong's numbers. If I am correct
>>> (see discussion "Strong numbers for Louis Segond" in
>>> 2013/07), we do not have the authorization (but still available in STEP)
>>> so this module has been removed or replaced by
>>> FreSegond module (renamed ?).
>>>
>>>
>>> In the past, the FreLSG had Strong's numbers. It was upgraded later to a
>>> new version that was horrible, filled with errors
>>> and even containing deuteros that never existed in the Segond Bible.
>>>
>>> This is why I made the FreSegond module, it was not an easy task. The
>>> Segond Bible is everywhere on the Web, but it looks like
>>> all sites use the same source, and it's not accurate.
>>>
>>>
>>> The fraLSG1910eb (F10) module is a more recent one, available in e-bible
>>> repo with headings, WoC and Strong's numbers. It
>>> seems to be a work in progress for Strong's numbers. They are not
>>> available for all books. I compare Strong's numbers
>>> affectations for the first verses of Genesis 1 (see attached screenshot)
>>> but there are errors in this module. On the left this
>>> module, on the right our data (https://concordance.bible/Sg1910/Gen/1/).
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> If I remember well, Michael have access to the DBL, so his module is
>>> certainly based on the official Public Domain version,
>>> edited by the Alliance Biblique Française (
>>> https://lire.la-bible.net/bible/LSG/GEN.1)
>>>
>>>
>>> So I contact all of you (especially actual maintainers of Segond 1910
>>> modules and French users) what would be the
>>> best way of giving our Strong's numbers for Segond 1910 in a sword
>>> module. I don't know who is concerned or interested
>>> that's why I send to the mailing list.
>>>
>>> As there is already many existing Segond 1910 sword module, it guess it
>>> would not be a good idea of creating a new one. On
>>> one side, as our text is based from FreSegond module, it might be a good
>>> idea of updating this module with Strong's numbers
>>> (the only difference is versification). On the other hand, the
>>> fraLSG1910eb module offers Strong's numbers but our data seems
>>> more accurate and complete, so it could be interesting of updating this
>>> module. In any case, it would be important to submit
>>> updates regularly for Strong's numbers.
>>>
>>>
>>> I think the best option for this module should be:
>>>
>>> 1. Have access to the DBL version
>>> 2. Update the current CrossWire module from that source with footnotes,
>>> comments and cross-references, keeping the original versification
>>> 3. Add Strong's numbers
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>>
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