[sword-devel] Print Bible Features

[David's Mailing-list and Spam Receiver]

On Tuesday 20 May 2003 11:14 am, Jimmie Houchin wrote:
> Hello David,
>
> I knew everyone would think I'm nuts, and to quote a little catapiller,
> "but I'm okay with that." :)

Not so much nuts as trying to re-invent the wheel as it were ^_~

> There are many Bibles in Sword which are not currently published. I
> believe that will increase over time. As Bibles leave copyright and as
> publishers promote their latest greatest, older ones may leave the presses.
> I just saw a hard cover ASV sell for $51 on eBay. I can buy it right now
> from the publisher for $25. The reason, people think the ASV is no
> longer published because it isn't in the stores or on CBD and for a time
> it was unpublished (I think).
> Where can I buy a Young's Literal Translation. I might find a used one
> at a considerable price. I would buy one if readily available at normal
> Bible prices.

I would imagine that there are places where you can buy out of print Bibles. 
No, I don't know where because I generally don't go looking for them. I have 
no need, for instance, of a print YLT or Geneva or anything like that. When I 
use these Bibles it's almost always just to compare translations.

> What about World English Bible? HNV, etc...

The WEB isn't actually completed. But you can buy new testaments from the WEB 
website.

> Free, readily available texts should be liberating to people with a
> vision for Printed Bibles. But they (okay maybe me someday) would want
> to have the features the Proprietary Print Bible publishers have.

Right, and there is nothing wrong with this.

> For many people the Big Bible Publishers have left the road we wish to
> travel. That is their right and power. I don't wish to follow them.

Which is your right and power.

> Where's my KJV/YLT Interlinear? :)

As far as I know there isn't one. And if you wish to publish them go right a 
head.

> Yes, regarding dictionaries, concordances and such the software
> implementation is bigger, better and more powerful than the print
> version. But I haven't given up my print Bibles yet. I don't currently
> conceive of a time I will. So these features will need to be
> intelligently restricted for print purposes.

I haven't either. In fact, I use BibleTime (my sword front-end) for 
surprisingly little reading and study. My eyes are much happier with me when 
I'm not in front of a monitor and I'm trying to read.

> I believe some features of Print Bibles are of value in software form.
> Others are primarily there to reproduce the Print version. I don't think
> that's a bad thing.

And some print features make absolutely no sense in the software world. 

> Yes, this is an itch I have. I will scratch it. I was exploring what I
> needed to harvest and what was already available, but I couldn't see it
> due to my usage patterns of Sword or the limitations of the frontend in
> presenting what is available in the module.

All I think we're trying to do is make sure you don't change the shape of our 
itch-scratcher when you get around to scratching that itch ^_~

> > Well, I don't really think it would be a wise idea to print sword
> > modules. Even if we could replicate every single feature that print
> > bibles have, the resulting quality would not be as good as a
> > professionally typset and printed bible.
>
> That is true. But nothing prevents anyone from doing a professionally
> typeset and printed Bible other than having the available texts and
> information. (Okay, money might, just might, factor in. :)

Money's the big factor actually. And printing quality aside, how would you 
bind 2000+ pages?

> > > Subject Headings
> > These are supported. But the module must have them. Currenly the ISV is
> > the only one I know that has thse.
>
> The ISVs copyright is not friendly towards harvesting for other uses.
>
> To me this can be and should be an independent feature (module). This is
> general to all Bibles not specific to any. From this module whether on
> not it is view could be toggled in the frontend and viewed in any text.

For someone who displays such a fondness for print Bibles you show very little 
knowledge of how they work. Even in print Bibles you will not find uniformity 
among subject headings. In fact, you're not guaranteed to have the same 
subject headings between different editions of the same translation. Let's 
take a look at four NKJV examples. I'll be comparing the MacArthur Study 
Bible, the Life Application Study Bible (NKJV), the NKJV column of the 
Contemporary Parallel New Testament, and the Orthodox Study Bible (NT and 
Psalms only).

For the passage of Luke 9:43-45,
MacArthur: Christ Prophesies His Coming Death,
   followed by some Harmony information
Life Application: Jesus Predicts His Death the Second Time,
   followed by Harmony information (including some indexing which is unique
   to that Bible)
Parallel: Jesus Again Predicts his Death
Orthodox: Second Prediction of the Passion,
   followed by Harmony information

So as you can see, subject headings are based upon what the editor of that 
particular Bible wanted to emphasize and are rather specific. Now you can 
argue that these all say the same thing, which at on a very abstract level 
they do. However, the Orthodox Bible words and creates headings in such a way 
as is meaningful to Orthodox Christians. John MacArthur to theological 
students and fundamentalist Christians. The Life Application editors, to the 
general public, etc. Each wording emphasizes something a little different.

Furthermore, The NIV and the Message in my parallel Bible (which I assume uses 
the translator's subject headings) don't even include a subject heading for 
this passage. The NIV lumps that passage in with the previous one about 
healing the demon possessed boy, and The Message lumps it in a section called 
"Your Business is Life"  which from what I can tell starts there and goes to 
the end of the chapter. (The message doesn't have verse numbers and thus it's 
hard to figure out where things start and stop in comparison to other 
translations)

And as if this weren't enough my Jewish New Testament (translated by David H 
Stern) doesn't even include subject headings. And many Bibles (notably KJV) 
don't inherently have subject headings either.

So as Chris already stated, this is not general to all Bible versions. It is 
particular to an editor and/or publisher's particular emphasis or mindset as 
well as versification scheme. I may want to produce a KJV, for example, that 
has headings based on the titles of Oracles of God songs. This would mean 
that essentially entire chapters get subject headings only except in a few 
places. Or someone may want to make subject headings that emphasize the 
Jewishness of the Bible.


> >>Read-along References
> Chris had this correct. This and Center Column are the same, just
> different presentation.

Ah, so this is merely a mechanical function of display then.

> >>Center Column References
> I understand what you are saying. But for a moment stop thinking about
> display or presentation. The question really is, is the information
> available for display?

Yes, if nothing else you can splice the TSK in, and there may be modules that 
include cross references es. I don't know any off hand but I'm sure when OSIS 
support is finalized in the next version that it will be possible to embed 
cross references into Bible modules.

And another point, cross references aren't any more universal than subject 
headings (and are probably even less so). Different Bibles have different 
cross references depending on who is doing the cross referencing and what 
they want to emphasize. Comparing NKJV's again;

For Acts 2:4,

MacArthur:
   For being filled with the Holy Spirit: Matt 3:11,5:6,10:20; Luke 3:16;
      John 14:16, 16:7-15; Acts 1:5
   For speaking in tongues: Mark 16:17; Acts 10:46, 19:6; 1 Cor 12:10,28,30,
      13:1 (conceptual)
Orthodox:
   Filled with The Spirit: Acts 1:5
   Speaking in Tongues: Mark 16:17
Life Application
   (Here cross references are not grouped by phrases)
   Mark 16:7; Acts 4:8, 31, 10:46, 13:9, 19:6; 1 Cor 12:10, 13:1; Eph 5:18

So you can see, the only verse that all three of these versions agree on as a 
cross references is Mark 16:17. Additionally my Jewish New Testament doesn't 
even include cross references (many Bibles, especially pocket Bibles still do 
not). What it does do is rather unique. Every time the Old Testament is 
quoted it bold faces the words with a footnote with the reference. And 
further, there is a complete index of OT quotations in the back.

> For presentation in Sword it could very easily be placed in the box to
> the right of the text (like where commentaries are in the Windows version).
> Nevertheless, references which viewable in proximity to the text being
> read.
> The TSK is a valuable resource, but difficult to constrict in this manner.

Nah, you can splice this in rather easily I would think. You just link the 
module with the reference you want to the corresponding verse. This can be 
done in module or at display time.

> >>Concordance
> Yes all of that is very true. Software is in many ways much more
> powerful than the print counterparts. But I don't have the software in
> my suit pocket, nor in my pulpit or on my desk for general reading.
> Print isn't going away.

Nor do I think it should. I even have a print concordance that I somewhat use 
(though I'm more apt to use a topical bible), and I do use the concordances 
in the back of the Bible every so often. But my point really was that you 
don't need to make a concordance module, or clutter Bible modules with 
concordance information. You can generate concordances mechanically via the 
search method. I can, in a Perl script, take all the words in a dictionary 
and preform some simple searches and generate an entire exhaustive 
concordance. What's more, I can generate concordances on phase searches, or 
using the power of regular expressions I can make a concordance just for 
words that start or end lines, or on word forms, or many other permutations. 
The possibilities for what concordances you can generate are limited only by 
your searching abilities.

> >>Harmonies of the Gospels
> This is true, but is that list readily available (electronically)?
> Or do I need to harvest it?

I don't know if we have any of these already available. But I don't imagine it 
would be hard to create one yourself.

> >>Book information (at begin of each book)
> I might be missing it, but where in Sword do we have a brief, several
> paragraph, commentary/description of the whole of any book?

Well, I didn't know of any off hand but I assumed that we had a commentary 
that had such available already. But since others have already commented on 
this I'll let it be except to state that this isn't universal either. Sure 
factual information doesn't change between translations. But what the editor 
of the Bible thinks ought to be included in the introduction does indeed 
change. The basic who, when, and where are generally constant when this 
information is agreed upon (and for some books it's not). But the 
introductory materials include more than this. Some include a basic 
disclosure 

> >>Messianic Prophecies, ... fulfilled
> This too would simply be a list with references. Presentation would be
> up to the frontend.

Right, which is a chart and easily generated. Alternatively you could do it as 
a commentary module.

> Many of these are readily available visual clues or indicators available
> in the Print Bible but not in Sword.

This I would say is because either a)we don't have any modules that provide 
these or b)there's a much better way to do this in the software world that 
makes more sense for our particular paradigm

> We already have things available which are not available in print.
> So to me the ability to put them back into print would be of value.
> Someone may see the value in publishing one of these someday.

It might be if you could make it cost-effective, however there just isn't a 
great public interest in a print Young's Literal Translation since, well most 
people aren't aware it exists and if they are they probably just want a good 
print copy of their favorite version instead.

> Home printing ability is improving incredibly. Bibles are unusual in
> their level of quality of printing and binding. But who knows what the
> home user could do in the future.

Point taken, though at the moment I really don't even see printing full 
replicas of print Bibles as cost effective, even for those Bibles that are 
out of print/circulation.

> Thanks for your reply and input. I am not meaning to come across
> harshly. My apologies if I do so.

That's OK. And I apologize as well if I've come across harshly.

> I do have this itch and passion and vision. Just trying to line up the
> tools I need to enable the vision. :)

Which is fine, but you need to understand that not all print Bibles have the 
features you mentioned. Some of my favorite print Bibles are all but text 
only. Having worked for a Christian bookstore where I did lots of Bible 
selling I learned that no one Bible type fits all. Some of us want study 
notes in our main Bible with the words of Christ in red. Others want large 
amounts of cross references, or word studies, or large margins to write in, 
or just a copy of the Bible text to read on the bus or plane or whatever. In 
software this is easy to give people by using filters and toggles. But in 
print you have to have a separate printing for all the needs.

I'm not trying to discourage you in any of my replies just point out that we 
are an electronic bible society and our priority is electronic Bibles and 
modules. 

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