[sword-devel] Print Bible Features

[Jimmie Houchin]

David's Mailing-list and Spam Receiver wrote:
> On Tuesday 20 May 2003 11:14 am, Jimmie Houchin wrote:
>>Hello David,
>>
>>I knew everyone would think I'm nuts, and to quote a little catapiller,
>>"but I'm okay with that." :)
> 
> Not so much nuts as trying to re-invent the wheel as it were ^_~

Which wheel would that be? The features I am asking for don't seem to 
exist, (electronically). Many print versions do not exist in a readily 
purchasable form either. Yes, I understand you may not want to purchase 
or read some of those versions. Thats fine. I don't purchase or read 
most of the versions currently available. That too is fine.

>>There are many Bibles in Sword which are not currently published. I
>>believe that will increase over time. As Bibles leave copyright and as
>>publishers promote their latest greatest, older ones may leave the presses.
>>I just saw a hard cover ASV sell for $51 on eBay. I can buy it right now
>>from the publisher for $25. The reason, people think the ASV is no
>>longer published because it isn't in the stores or on CBD and for a time
>>it was unpublished (I think).
>>Where can I buy a Young's Literal Translation. I might find a used one
>>at a considerable price. I would buy one if readily available at normal
>>Bible prices.
> 
> I would imagine that there are places where you can buy out of print Bibles. 
> No, I don't know where because I generally don't go looking for them. I have 
> no need, for instance, of a print YLT or Geneva or anything like that. When I 
> use these Bibles it's almost always just to compare translations.

Not that I can necessarily afford it depending on price, but I *have* 
searched for Young's Literal Translation several times. I have never 
seen one for sale.

>>What about World English Bible? HNV, etc...
> 
> The WEB isn't actually completed. But you can buy new testaments from the WEB 
> website.

Yes I know WEB is not finished. Wasn't exactly the point. However this 
could be enabling for that process to occur to take that vision and put 
it into print.

>>Free, readily available texts should be liberating to people with a
>>vision for Printed Bibles. But they (okay maybe me someday) would want
>>to have the features the Proprietary Print Bible publishers have.
> 
> Right, and there is nothing wrong with this.
> 
>>For many people the Big Bible Publishers have left the road we wish to
>>travel. That is their right and power. I don't wish to follow them.
> 
> Which is your right and power.
> 
>>Where's my KJV/YLT Interlinear? :)
> 
> As far as I know there isn't one. And if you wish to publish them go right a 
> head.

Yes, and that is my point.

>>Yes, regarding dictionaries, concordances and such the software
>>implementation is bigger, better and more powerful than the print
>>version. But I haven't given up my print Bibles yet. I don't currently
>>conceive of a time I will. So these features will need to be
>>intelligently restricted for print purposes.
> 
> I haven't either. In fact, I use BibleTime (my sword front-end) for 
> surprisingly little reading and study. My eyes are much happier with me when 
> I'm not in front of a monitor and I'm trying to read.

I haven't yet downloaded BibleTime. When I last attempted it wasn't 
ready for KDE 3 yet. I need to check again, I was thinking the last beta 
was able.

>>I believe some features of Print Bibles are of value in software form.
>>Others are primarily there to reproduce the Print version. I don't think
>>that's a bad thing.
> 
> And some print features make absolutely no sense in the software world. 

Yes, I said nothing contrary to that.

>>Yes, this is an itch I have. I will scratch it. I was exploring what I
>>needed to harvest and what was already available, but I couldn't see it
>>due to my usage patterns of Sword or the limitations of the frontend in
>>presenting what is available in the module.
> 
> All I think we're trying to do is make sure you don't change the shape of our 
> itch-scratcher when you get around to scratching that itch ^_~

And nothing I stated explicitly nor implicity made any arguments to 
change anything for anybody. I didn't argue to change Bible Texts and 
any other module. Merely for these items to possibly be available 
independently and usable at an individuals discretion. Such is the power 
of software. Each person can and does have their own individual usage 
pattern.


>>>Well, I don't really think it would be a wise idea to print sword
>>>modules. Even if we could replicate every single feature that print
>>>bibles have, the resulting quality would not be as good as a
>>>professionally typset and printed bible.
>>
>>That is true. But nothing prevents anyone from doing a professionally
>>typeset and printed Bible other than having the available texts and
>>information. (Okay, money might, just might, factor in. :)
> 
> Money's the big factor actually. And printing quality aside, how would you 
> bind 2000+ pages?

Yes, I know money is a factor. See the smiley. :)
Just as their are professional printers, their are professional binders. 
And together they can be a publisher.

>>>>Subject Headings
>>>
>>>These are supported. But the module must have them. Currenly the ISV is
>>>the only one I know that has thse.
>>
>>The ISVs copyright is not friendly towards harvesting for other uses.
>>
>>To me this can be and should be an independent feature (module). This is
>>general to all Bibles not specific to any. From this module whether on
>>not it is view could be toggled in the frontend and viewed in any text.
> 
> For someone who displays such a fondness for print Bibles you show very little 
> knowledge of how they work. Even in print Bibles you will not find uniformity 
> among subject headings. In fact, you're not guaranteed to have the same 
> subject headings between different editions of the same translation. Let's 
> take a look at four NKJV examples. I'll be comparing the MacArthur Study 
> Bible, the Life Application Study Bible (NKJV), the NKJV column of the 
> Contemporary Parallel New Testament, and the Orthodox Study Bible (NT and 
> Psalms only).

Like print Bibles implies absolutely nothing about having read dozens of 
them.

> For the passage of Luke 9:43-45,
> MacArthur: Christ Prophesies His Coming Death,
>    followed by some Harmony information
> Life Application: Jesus Predicts His Death the Second Time,
>    followed by Harmony information (including some indexing which is unique
>    to that Bible)
> Parallel: Jesus Again Predicts his Death
> Orthodox: Second Prediction of the Passion,
>    followed by Harmony information
 >
> So as you can see, subject headings are based upon what the editor of that 
> particular Bible wanted to emphasize and are rather specific. Now you can 
> argue that these all say the same thing, which at on a very abstract level 
> they do. However, the Orthodox Bible words and creates headings in such a way 
> as is meaningful to Orthodox Christians. John MacArthur to theological 
> students and fundamentalist Christians. The Life Application editors, to the 
> general public, etc. Each wording emphasizes something a little different.

Here again, where you see difference, I see commonality.
Yes the phrasing is different. Not a problem or issue.

The idea is to merely convey a small amount of information.

Any dozen people with identical education and theology could word these 
differently.

> Furthermore, The NIV and the Message in my parallel Bible (which I assume uses 
> the translator's subject headings) don't even include a subject heading for 
> this passage. The NIV lumps that passage in with the previous one about 
> healing the demon possessed boy, and The Message lumps it in a section called 
> "Your Business is Life"  which from what I can tell starts there and goes to 
> the end of the chapter. (The message doesn't have verse numbers and thus it's 
> hard to figure out where things start and stop in comparison to other 
> translations)
> 
> And as if this weren't enough my Jewish New Testament (translated by David H 
> Stern) doesn't even include subject headings. And many Bibles (notably KJV) 
> don't inherently have subject headings either.
> 
> So as Chris already stated, this is not general to all Bible versions. It is 
> particular to an editor and/or publisher's particular emphasis or mindset as 
> well as versification scheme. I may want to produce a KJV, for example, that 
> has headings based on the titles of Oracles of God songs. This would mean 
> that essentially entire chapters get subject headings only except in a few 
> places. Or someone may want to make subject headings that emphasize the 
> Jewishness of the Bible.

And as I've stated, everything I've discussed would be external and 
independent of any text. It use would be up to the frontend, Bible 
publisher and individual user. It is adding features, not modifying 
anything.

Yes, I have many Bibles which do not have Subject headers. The point 
isn't whether something is general to all Bible versions or whether 
everybody sees a value in something. If that were the case we might as 
well shut the doors. A question could easily be, does this add value to 
some people? If yes, what is the cost of adding this value for those 
some people? Is it worth it?

If I do the work. If I make the modules (or some other volunteer). If 
they are independent and only those who want them download or install 
them. Then the cost is minimal and doesn't adversely impact anyone.

>>>>Read-along References
>>
>>Chris had this correct. This and Center Column are the same, just
>>different presentation.
> 
> Ah, so this is merely a mechanical function of display then.
> 
>>>>Center Column References
>>
>>I understand what you are saying. But for a moment stop thinking about
>>display or presentation. The question really is, is the information
>>available for display?
> 
> Yes, if nothing else you can splice the TSK in, and there may be modules that 
> include cross references es. I don't know any off hand but I'm sure when OSIS 
> support is finalized in the next version that it will be possible to embed 
> cross references into Bible modules.
> 
> And another point, cross references aren't any more universal than subject 
> headings (and are probably even less so). Different Bibles have different 
> cross references depending on who is doing the cross referencing and what 
> they want to emphasize. Comparing NKJV's again;
> 
> For Acts 2:4,
> 
> MacArthur:
>    For being filled with the Holy Spirit: Matt 3:11,5:6,10:20; Luke 3:16;
>       John 14:16, 16:7-15; Acts 1:5
>    For speaking in tongues: Mark 16:17; Acts 10:46, 19:6; 1 Cor 12:10,28,30,
>       13:1 (conceptual)
> Orthodox:
>    Filled with The Spirit: Acts 1:5
>    Speaking in Tongues: Mark 16:17
> Life Application
>    (Here cross references are not grouped by phrases)
>    Mark 16:7; Acts 4:8, 31, 10:46, 13:9, 19:6; 1 Cor 12:10, 13:1; Eph 5:18
> 
> So you can see, the only verse that all three of these versions agree on as a 
> cross references is Mark 16:17. Additionally my Jewish New Testament doesn't 
> even include cross references (many Bibles, especially pocket Bibles still do 
> not). What it does do is rather unique. Every time the Old Testament is 
> quoted it bold faces the words with a footnote with the reference. And 
> further, there is a complete index of OT quotations in the back.

Agreement isn't necessary. All are subsets of a real true 
cross-reference system. And since the only person who could deliver 
that, is sitting on a throne in Heaven we will have to live with limited 
imperfect subsets. That too, is okay.

>>For presentation in Sword it could very easily be placed in the box to
>>the right of the text (like where commentaries are in the Windows version).
>>Nevertheless, references which viewable in proximity to the text being
>>read.
>>The TSK is a valuable resource, but difficult to constrict in this manner.
> 
> Nah, you can splice this in rather easily I would think. You just link the 
> module with the reference you want to the corresponding verse. This can be 
> done in module or at display time.

Possibly. But the problem I was referencing is limiting the TSK to a 
small subset suitable for inclusion in a print version. It could be done 
but would take some work.

>>>>Concordance
>>
>>Yes all of that is very true. Software is in many ways much more
>>powerful than the print counterparts. But I don't have the software in
>>my suit pocket, nor in my pulpit or on my desk for general reading.
>>Print isn't going away.
> 
> Nor do I think it should. I even have a print concordance that I somewhat use 
> (though I'm more apt to use a topical bible), and I do use the concordances 
> in the back of the Bible every so often. But my point really was that you 
> don't need to make a concordance module, or clutter Bible modules with 
> concordance information. You can generate concordances mechanically via the 
> search method. I can, in a Perl script, take all the words in a dictionary 
> and preform some simple searches and generate an entire exhaustive 
> concordance. What's more, I can generate concordances on phase searches, or 
> using the power of regular expressions I can make a concordance just for 
> words that start or end lines, or on word forms, or many other permutations. 
> The possibilities for what concordances you can generate are limited only by 
> your searching abilities.

Yes all of that is very true. But I'm not talking about cluttering Bible 
modules. I am merely talking about a reasonable subset for inclusion in 
a print version.

I need to sit down and finish reading the book on Regular Expressions. 
Bought it years ago, but never sat down to learn it. It is a valuable skill.

>>>>Harmonies of the Gospels
>>
>>This is true, but is that list readily available (electronically)?
>>Or do I need to harvest it?
> 
> I don't know if we have any of these already available. But I don't imagine it 
> would be hard to create one yourself.

It wouldn't be hard. But that would be re-inventing the wheel. I would 
(will) just harvest it from a out of copyright Bible.

>>>>Book information (at begin of each book)
>>
>>I might be missing it, but where in Sword do we have a brief, several
>>paragraph, commentary/description of the whole of any book?
> 
> Well, I didn't know of any off hand but I assumed that we had a commentary 
> that had such available already. But since others have already commented on 
> this I'll let it be except to state that this isn't universal either. Sure 
> factual information doesn't change between translations. But what the editor 
> of the Bible thinks ought to be included in the introduction does indeed 
> change. The basic who, when, and where are generally constant when this 
> information is agreed upon (and for some books it's not). But the 
> introductory materials include more than this. Some include a basic 
> disclosure 

Well none of our extra-Biblical material is perfect or necessarily 
doctrinally or theologically correct. It was done by imperfect humans. 
And this goes for anything I or anyone else do. However, because it 
isn't all identical doesn't make any of it not of value.

>>>>Messianic Prophecies, ... fulfilled
>>
>>This too would simply be a list with references. Presentation would be
>>up to the frontend.
> 
> Right, which is a chart and easily generated. Alternatively you could do it as 
> a commentary module.

Most definitely a module.

>>Many of these are readily available visual clues or indicators available
>>in the Print Bible but not in Sword.
> 
> This I would say is because either a)we don't have any modules that provide 
> these or b)there's a much better way to do this in the software world that 
> makes more sense for our particular paradigm

Well it never hurts to keep an open mind regarding this. There is much 
debate over any of these features. But much of this is to empower the 
user and let the user be the master of their experience.

Kind of like the Red-letter arguments. Red letters are a powerful visual 
indicator. So are Subject Headers, Messianic Prophecy * (stars), 
cross-references, and Strongs numbers in my favorite study Bible.


>>We already have things available which are not available in print.
>>So to me the ability to put them back into print would be of value.
>>Someone may see the value in publishing one of these someday.
> 
> It might be if you could make it cost-effective, however there just isn't a 
> great public interest in a print Young's Literal Translation since, well most 
> people aren't aware it exists and if they are they probably just want a good 
> print copy of their favorite version instead.

This is true. But this liberates people from necessarily being limited 
to what the people who don't know what exists and who only know what is 
being sold to them to dictate what Bibles are published because of 
commercial viability. Whew! I hope that made sense. :)

Also it real easy to view things from a Western, prosper US/Europe 
perspective. (I speak for those of us from such)

In the US I can buy Bibles as easily as any other book. That is not so 
in many other countries. That may not be so in US/Europe at some point 
in the future. I hope such never happens. This ability could be an 
enabling factore for other countries and other times in history. I don't 
know.

>>Home printing ability is improving incredibly. Bibles are unusual in
>>their level of quality of printing and binding. But who knows what the
>>home user could do in the future.
> 
> Point taken, though at the moment I really don't even see printing full 
> replicas of print Bibles as cost effective, even for those Bibles that are 
> out of print/circulation.

True. But sometimes cost effectiveness isn't even an issue. The ability 
is more important.

I will in the near future, (within a few weeks) be doing just some of 
this. I will be printing out a KJV/ASV/HNV/YLT parallel for study 
purposes. Laser printer get ready, here it comes. :)

For this purpose none of the features I'm talking about will be 
employed. Just the texts. User choice! :)

>>Thanks for your reply and input. I am not meaning to come across
>>harshly. My apologies if I do so.
> 
> That's OK. And I apologize as well if I've come across harshly.

Not a problem.

>>I do have this itch and passion and vision. Just trying to line up the
>>tools I need to enable the vision. :)
> 
> 
> Which is fine, but you need to understand that not all print Bibles have the 
> features you mentioned. Some of my favorite print Bibles are all but text 
> only. Having worked for a Christian bookstore where I did lots of Bible 
> selling I learned that no one Bible type fits all. Some of us want study 
> notes in our main Bible with the words of Christ in red. Others want large 
> amounts of cross references, or word studies, or large margins to write in, 
> or just a copy of the Bible text to read on the bus or plane or whatever. In 
> software this is easy to give people by using filters and toggles. But in 
> print you have to have a separate printing for all the needs.

Exactly. In print this just means multiple hard copies. Which I have. I 
have my giant print for simple daily reading and my Zodhiates study 
Bible for study, church, etc.

The thing is if I wanted to publish a Bible, I could relatively easily 
offer the plain text no features version. But to go further, I would 
have to have the other items available for it to even be an option. This 
what I'm talking about. Choices, options, not requirements or limitations.

> I'm not trying to discourage you in any of my replies just point out that we 
> are an electronic bible society and our priority is electronic Bibles and 
> modules.

That I understand, and am a blessed beneficiary of. :)
However, much of what is necessary for my task is here.
Some isn't and would need to be harvested.
Some would be of value to an electronic Bible, some merely to reproduce 
the print version. The features merely to reproduce a print version 
could simply be some small modules downloadable, installable only by 
those of us who choose to do such. No requirements or burdens on anybody 
happy to go to their local or online bookstore and buy their publically 
available Bible of choice.

Jimmie Houchin