[sword-devel] AndBible WEBC Daniel

Tue Apr 25 05:21:14 EDT 2023

Le 25/04/2023 à 02:06, Michael Johnson a écrit :
> OK, Troy. I hear you saying that it is not "broken", but working 
> perfectly as designed. That is actually worse, because if it were 
> broken, there might be some motivation to fix it. As it is, I have no 
> hope that the World English Bible Ecumenical Editions will ever be 
> properly displayed in any Sword software, at least as far as having 
> both versions of Daniel goes. That isn't important to you. I get that. 
> It is more important to me to preserve the versifications of the 
> original works than it is to support Sword, especially if DAN and DAG 
> are not allowed to coexist in the same Bible. Time for a fork?

Hi Michael,
I think there seems to be something inconsistent in your choice of a 
Greek translation of Daniel alongside a translation from the Hebrew (no 
disrespect in the word inconsistent I will explain). If you take this 
option you should do so for all the OT books which all have a Greek 
translation and a Hebrew text. That's why it seemed to me that the 
choice of a versification that takes into account only the Greek text 
was relevant. In Catholic translations in general, both the Greek and 
the Hebrew are taken into account, i.e. if the Hebrew is difficult, the 
Greek is taken into account. If one makes a translation from the LXX 
only in this case it becomes a proper translation, for example in French 
we have the translation of Giguet. So I don't think anyone would be 
shocked to see a book of Daniel translated from the Hebrew but adding 
the Greek passages, as in most Catholic translations.
Another aspect I'm thinking about is the book of Tobit, we have a short 
text, and a long text so again we have to choose, one or the other, 
often the Catholic translations add in notes the differences between the 
two texts. This is what I did for the neo-Crampon-libre, which takes 
into account the Vulgate, the short version in Greek and the long version!
In any case for the Catholic versification as you only have one file for 
Daniel as for Esther, I have no hesitation to pass the id in DAN and 
EST. Nothing inconsistent there.
Maybe a solution for the web with DC, my idea would be to use variant. I 
did this for the Greek NT. I "invented" a tag \var and use it as second 
variant in the osis file. This can be great.

David's idea is also interesting but much heavier. Besides, I've been 
dreaming of an updated Catholic versification for some time... In which 
case, if one day we add a versification proper to WEB we could take 
advantage of it to correct the Catholic one.

>
> On 4/24/23 08:47, Troy A. Griffitts wrote:
>> 😊
>>
>> I would obvious encourage the use of "well balanced" over "broken".
>>
>> The use cases we need to solve are varied, but the typical cases have 
>> to be priorities.
>>
>> 1) Users lookup verses by reference, e.g., for Dan 3:7. What should 
>> they get? Majority of users don't ask for the Greek or Hebrew version 
>> of Daniel or even know about the difference.
>>
>> 2) Users want to compare a verse across translations. This is the 
>> primary motivator for defined versification schemes and maps between 
>> them. e.g. when a user is reading Ps 10:1, and ask to see it in an 
>> LXX translation, we need to show them Ps.9.21.
>>
>> I understand the desire to let publishers flow their texts however 
>> they want, and we should do better for the publishers, but that is by 
>> far not the majority use case for users.
>>
>>
>> On April 24, 2023 9:51:56 AM MST, Michael Johnson 
>> <Michael at eBible.org> wrote:
>>
>>     Hi Br. Cyrille,
>>
>>     Actually, that work-around might work for Catholic versification,
>>     but not for the ecumenical versification of the WEB. That is
>>     because the World English Bible contains both Daniel translated
>>     from the Hebrew traditional text (DAN) and Daniel translated from
>>     the Greek Septuagint (DAG). The USFM markup is correct. The
>>     ability of the Sword Engine to interpret it is broken.
>>
>>     On 4/24/23 01:43, Fr Cyrille wrote:
>>>     Hi Michael,
>>>     THe problem is the same with xiphos.
>>>     If you want your file readable with the Catholic versification,
>>>     you need to use the DAN \id in your usfm file, and not \id DAG.
>>>     It's not a front-end issue but an usfm issue.
>>>     @Jon, you probably know, with Andbible in the list of the bible
>>>     books, the DC and accessible with the +.
>>>
>>>     Le 23/04/2023 à 09:29, Michael Johnson a écrit :
>>>>
>>>>     Hello, Jonathan.
>>>>
>>>>     WEB and WEBC indeed contain Daniel (Greek). However, I don't
>>>>     know how to select a Sword Engine versification that can cause
>>>>     the front ends (AndBible, Bishop, Xiphos, etc.) to properly
>>>>     display Daniel (Greek). They can display some fragments of
>>>>     Daniel (Greek), like Susanna and Bel and the Dragon, but the
>>>>     World English Bible isn't split up that way, and won't be.
>>>>     Daniel (Greek) makes more sense when presented as a whole. I'm
>>>>     not sure if this is possible to do within the Sword ecosystem.
>>>>
>>>>     In the mean time, eBible.org epub files work well with Google
>>>>     Books and Apple Books, among other epub readers, no matter what
>>>>     their versification. You can get to any chapter in about 3
>>>>     taps. The Sword Engine tries to force-fit every Bible
>>>>     translation into a small set of predefined, hard-coded
>>>>     versification schemes, none of which exactly match the World
>>>>     English Bible. In fact, they don't exactly match a very high
>>>>     percentage of Bible translations.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>     On 4/22/23 19:36, you wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>      Name-> Jonathan Faust
>>>>>      Email-> jonfaust at tutanota.com
>>>>>      Subject-> AndBible WEBC Daniel
>>>>>      Form URL-> https://eBible.org/cgi-bin/contact.cgi
>>>>>      Remote IP-> 172.69.204.168
>>>>>     Hi there!
>>>>>
>>>>>     Apologies if I'm mistaken, but I'm not seeing Daniel (Greek)
>>>>>     in my bible app. It looks like both the WEB and WEBC contain
>>>>>     Esther (Greek) but lack Daniel (Greek). This would imply WEBC
>>>>>     contains no translation of Daniel. I see it on browser bible
>>>>>     and in the EPUB. Is this an issue with AndBible, the source
>>>>>     WEB files, or something else?
>>>>
>>>>     -- 
>>>>     signature
>>>>
>>>>     Aloha,
>>>>     */Michael Johnson/**
>>>>     26 HIWALANI LOOP • MAKAWAO HI 96768-8747*• USA
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>>>>
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>>
>> -- 
>> Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
>>
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>
>
> -- 
> signature
>
> Aloha,
> */Michael Johnson/**
> 26 HIWALANI LOOP • MAKAWAO HI 96768-8747*• USA
> mljohnson.org <https://mljohnson.org/> • eBible.org 
> <https://eBible.org> • WorldEnglish.Bible <https://WorldEnglish.Bible> 
> • PNG.Bible <https://PNG.Bible>
> Signal/Telegram/WhatsApp/Telephone: +1 808-333-6921
> Skype: kahunapule • Telegram/Twitter: @kahunapule • Facebook: 
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>
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