[sword-devel] I give up
Tom Sullivan
info at beforgiven.info
Thu May 14 06:09:09 MST 2020
Y'all:
Some clarifications:
By no means am I quitting Sword. I intended the opposite, just that I am
willing to put up with bugs and older versions than be a time wasting pest.
Debian Stable is best for me. Starting a new release, I can
fix/workaround issues and be done; things are not changing on me. It is
also secure and reliable. If you have ever discovered that some bug made
a mess of a document (for example) and three weeks of saved versions and
work are messed up, you will understand my viewpoint.
But delays due to repository updates are not all of the problem, I am
fine with working scripts (Firefox latest version, not ESR; VirtualBox
Guest Additions), *.deb files that work and do not ask for dependencies
not available to me (Zoom), and so on are fine.
Thanks for suggestions about Fedora. I will try to bring up a VM with it
and test Sword stuff. That would be an acceptable solution long term.
Reference to Sword 1.8.0, not .1 at
http://www2.crosswire.org/sword/index.jsp.
It also looks like my missive has got others thinking about solutions
also - many thanks.
Tom
Tom Sullivan
info at BeForgiven.INFO
FAX: 815-301-2835
---------------------
On 5/13/20 5:39 PM, Greg Hellings wrote:
>
>
> On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 4:28 PM Tom Sullivan <info at beforgiven.info
> <mailto:info at beforgiven.info>> wrote:
>
> Greg:
>
> The repositories do not contain the latest versions. For example, the
> Debian Buster repository presents Xiphos 4.1, not the latest 4.2.
>
>
> 1) This is the benefit and curse of Debian. It refuses to let new
> versions of packages in that are not bugfix and ONLY bugfix. Nothing
> with new features at all is allowed into a stable/released version of
> Debian. It's a benefit to users who need the stability (read: server
> administrators and people who develop software for running on those
> stable versions of Debian) but it's a terrible experience for end users.
> If you're using Debian anything (other than sid, their testing release)
> for an end-user desktop, then you're going to have a bad experience.
>
> 2) This is, again, an issue with the distro, and not with Crosswire or
> Xiphos. There is nothing we can do to affect upstream's release cadence
> and rules. Now, if the Xiphos project had enough developer manpower to
> maintain patches to the 4.1 series as well as continue development
> towards 4.2, then maybe we'd be able to get a 4.1.1 and 4.1.2 into old
> Debian versions. That's what large projects do (like Debian itself), but
> we just don't have the developer bandwidth to maintain multiple branches
> on any of our software. But none of our software is intended for server,
> long-lived boxes, either. It's all end user focused stuff.
>
>
> That is how I ended up reporting bugs that had been fixed. It is a wide
> problem; I mention Xiphos, not as a bad example, but because I happened
> to remember the version numbers.
>
>
> The same would be true of Sword. 1.8.1 is not just a bugfix release of
> the 1.8 series. It introduced some minor new functionality so,
> technically, it would not have been permitted into the Debian repository
> if anyone was checking closely. This is just how we handle our software,
> again, because we lack the manpower to keep multiple development streams
> flowing.
>
> I would, again, submit that your issue is actually with your chosen
> distribution. Its documentation appears to be inadequate, and it's
> lulled you into using a distribution that's not targeting your use case.
> You might try running Fedora (or Ubuntu and not staying on LTS versions)
> which have much more generous update policies. I can tell you, for
> instance, that Xiphos compiles very nicely on current Fedora versions
> with a few very simple commands. I happen to know this because I
> maintain both our Xiphos CI process and the packages in the repositories
> for Xiphos. Now, I haven't updated the packages to 4.2.1 yet, for
> Xiphos, because I was busy helping with the CI and the release of 4.2.1,
> but due to the CI I know that compiling for Fedora 32 will be a breeze.
>
> Compiling for Ubuntu is a little more of a challenge, because of the
> missing dependencies, but Caleb is working on create a dedicated
> repository on Ubuntu's infrastructure just for that. And Caleb, myself,
> Dom, and Karl are all working to resolve those issues so that, in the
> future, a 4.3 or 4.4 will be able to make it back into the Debian repos
> and eventually into the Ubuntu "universe" repositories.
>
> So maybe give us a shot, still, on a distro that's meant for you? :)
>
> --Greg
>
>
> Tom
>
> Tom Sullivan
> info at BeForgiven.INFO
> FAX: 815-301-2835
> ---------------------
>
> On 5/13/20 5:21 PM, Greg Hellings wrote:
> >
> >
> > On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 3:57 PM Tom Sullivan
> <info at beforgiven.info <mailto:info at beforgiven.info>
> > <mailto:info at beforgiven.info <mailto:info at beforgiven.info>>> wrote:
> >
> > Y'all:
> >
> > First, I recognize that as a writer and long retired
> developer and
> > engineer (and thus obsolete) that in terms of technical
> issues, I am
> > way
> > out of my league with all you C++ programmers and experts.
> >
> > Second, I want to thank all of you for your hard work.
> Compared to what
> > is available for Windows and Mac users, available Bible
> software and
> > tools are sparse. You work as volunteers and on a shoestring
> budget.
> > Very many thanks. Without your work, I would be back to books
> and paper
> > without being able to search, compare versions, etc., with
> such ease.
> > Linux users are definitely an under served people group and
> you fill a
> > big need.
> >
> > Some of you may remember my SwordHammer project. Frankly, it has
> > crashed
> > and burned. Due to an architecture decision that was not the
> best, it
> > became unwieldy. And now, due to changes in my life, I cannot
> continue,
> > though I had started on a new architecture. This has two
> consequences:
> > 1. There probably is not any longer reason to continue on
> this list
> > much
> > longer.
> > 2. I got an appreciation for the huge problem caused by
> incompatible
> > Linux distros. For example, I did not know that Ubuntu users were
> > limited to sudo, instead of being able to run as root.
> >
> > Many of my previous interactions with this list have been
> caused by my
> > use of obsolete versions. I cannot help it. I seem only able
> to install
> > packages from the Debian repository (or download a *.deb
> suitable for
> > Debian Buster and install). I recently tried to compile and
> install
> > Sword (which worked), BibleTime (which crashed), and Xiphos
> (which I
> > was
> > not able to compile by various tries.) There are errors in
> the docs,
> > and
> > discrepancies between docs, and who knows what.) I failed. So
> I am
> > stuck, and that is not mainly your fault. The problem is that
> there is
> > no Linux-wide packaging or installation system. It may or may
> not be
> > technically feasible, I don't know). When things go wrong, I
> often have
> > no idea how to fix them.
> >
> >
> > You really shouldn't have to download any files. You should only
> have to
> > run "sudo apt update && sudo apt install bibletime". Or, if you
> want to
> > compile BibleTime from source but use the packaged Sword library,
> "sudo
> > apt install libsword-dev". Currently, Xiphos is not compatible with
> > Debian/Ubuntu because it depends on ancient libraries that are not
> > available in those distributions anymore. However, packagers for
> those
> > distros, until recently, were maintaining a heavily patched
> version of
> > Xiphos that was avilable in their repositories. All that was
> needed was
> > "sudo apt install xiphos". No downloading or building or manually
> > finding dependencies.
> >
> >
> > So I have two suggestions here, but let me start with an analogy.
> > When I
> > have to buy a new vehicle, my concern is not if the seat is
> nice and
> > the
> > radio works and the vanity light works. I want it to safely
> take me
> > where I want to go. If there is a rip in the seat or dents in
> the body
> > or some rust or something, I can live with that. So, I am
> willing to
> > live with what is in the repositories and not waste everybody
> else's
> > time with bug reports. I apologize for doing that. It was not
> > intentional, but that is what happened.
> >
> > Suggestion 1: Clean up documentation. Prime exhibit: May
> Crosswire page
> > refers to Sword 1.8.0 with link for months with no mention of
> 1.8.1.
> >
> >
> > I'm not sure where you're looking. This is the download page for
> Sword
> > source http://crosswire.org/sword/develop/index.jsp and it mentions
> > 1.8.1 without incident.
> >
> >
> > Suggestion 2: For the more popular distros, provide ready-to-go
> > packages, .deb files (or equivalent, such as .rpm) for
> installs and
> > updates, even if they do not hit the repositories until
> later. This
> > will
> > get users access who are not experts. In my opinion, for what
> it is
> > worth, this is at least as important as new features. Also
> allow users
> > an option to automatically check for updates and tell where
> to get a
> > new
> > package. I understand that this takes time and work. I would
> rather get
> > some new features and bug fixes, and be able to get and use
> them, than
> > new features I will never see because I can't compile or
> something. I
> > rather think that others are also in my position as well.
> >
> >
> > This is usually a Very Bad Idea for upstream projects. Every
> distro has
> > its own quirks, foibles, and differences. For instance, gtkhtml
> is still
> > avilable on Fedora but not on Ubuntu or Debian. As such, Xiphos
> can be
> > compiled rather readily on Fedora but not on Debian/Ubuntu
> without heavy
> > patching of the source to disable the editor features. Those are
> details
> > already managed by the packagers of those distributions and are
> quite a
> > nightmare for every upstream project to keep track of. Nor is it
> easy to
> > keep separate the very tiny tweaks that make up the Debian ->
> Ubuntu ->
> > Mint/Pop/etc food chain where downstream distributions consume
> upstream
> > packages in some manner. Providing a build is not something upstream
> > projects like Sword ought to do.
> >
> > Should our docs be updated so that they work in those distros, where
> > possible? Yes. But it sounds like most of your difficulty was
> with the
> > package manager on the Debian (or Ubuntu?) system you were using.
> For an
> > end user, you should have just "sudo apt install <my pacage>" and
> been
> > able to get along without trouble. The fact you weren't was a
> failure on
> > the part of the distribution. Not on Sword, Crosswire, BibleTime, or
> > Xiphos. I have no idea what your ultimate goal is, though, so I
> can't
> > give you more particular details than that.
> >
> > --Greg
> >
> >
> > For what it is worth, and sorry it is so long. Sorry again
> for wasting
> > all your time in the past. God bless you and keep up all the
> good work.
> > It is not perfect, but it is definitely good and I use your
> stuff many
> > hours a week and every day.
> >
> > Sincerely,
> > Tom Sullivan
> >
> > --
> > Tom Sullivan
> > info at BeForgiven.INFO
> > FAX: 815-301-2835
> > ---------------------
> >
> >
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