[sword-devel] Packaging (was: I give up)
G&J Bennett
gaznjez at iinet.net.au
Thu May 14 04:23:35 MST 2020
Hi,
I'm running Xiphos 4.1 under flatpak. There was a bit of fiddling to
get Xiphos to save settings but this was overcome by setting a flatpak
option.
I'm not sure who generated the flatpak version, but it's still on 4.1
as of yesterday.
Regards, Gary
On Wed, 2020-05-13 at 15:54 -0700, Troy A. Griffitts wrote:
> Has anyone tried any of the packaging tools based on containers,
> like flatpak?
>
>
>
> On 5/13/20 3:30 PM, Michael H wrote:
>
>
>
>
> >
> >
> > On Ubuntu,
> > I've gone to PPA version for LibreOffice... which is a
> > newer
> > version than was released under Ubuntu 18 LTS. However,
> > it's
> > not as easy to go to PPA for sword apps because there are
> > more
> > interactions with dependencies between
> > the sword engine, gnome, etc.
> >
> >
> >
> > Back in 2002 to 04 time frame: I was trying to build for
> > palmOS, and ran into this dependencies won't line up, i
> > need
> > multiple minor revisions of the same thing to make
> > everything
> > work. I and ended up getting somebody to
> > "staticly compile"
> > apps for me on the linux side, so my work on palm
> > wouldn't be
> > falling into dependency gap. It increases the size of the
> > package, but no longer depends on anything outside the
> > package. In today's environment of massive amounts of RAM
> > and
> > disk space, i don't see why any 'application' on linux
> > doesn't
> > do this... pulling in the libraries and having an extra
> > copy
> > of them makes them far more stable, and it makes them run
> > quicker. It does consume more memory and disk space, but
> > the
> > days when there was any risk of running out of ram or
> > disk
> > space on desktops are into double digits gone by.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 4:39
> > PM Greg Hellings <greg.hellings at gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Wed, May 13, 2020 at
> > > 4:28 PM Tom Sullivan <info at beforgiven.info>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > Greg:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > The repositories do not contain the latest
> > > > versions. For
> > > > example, the
> > > >
> > > > Debian Buster repository presents Xiphos 4.1,
> > > > not the
> > > > latest 4.2.
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > 1) This is the benefit and curse of Debian. It
> > > refuses to let new versions of packages in that
> > > are not
> > > bugfix and ONLY bugfix. Nothing with new features
> > > at all
> > > is allowed into a stable/released version of
> > > Debian.
> > > It's a benefit to users who need the stability
> > > (read:
> > > server administrators and people who develop
> > > software
> > > for running on those stable versions of Debian)
> > > but it's
> > > a terrible experience for end users. If you're
> > > using
> > > Debian anything (other than sid, their testing
> > > release)
> > > for an end-user desktop, then you're going to
> > > have a bad
> > > experience.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > 2) This is, again, an issue with the distro, and
> > > not
> > > with Crosswire or Xiphos. There is nothing we can
> > > do to
> > > affect upstream's release cadence and rules. Now,
> > > if the
> > > Xiphos project had enough developer manpower to
> > > maintain
> > > patches to the 4.1 series as well as continue
> > > development towards 4.2, then maybe we'd be able
> > > to get
> > > a 4.1.1 and 4.1.2 into old Debian versions.
> > > That's what
> > > large projects do (like Debian itself), but we
> > > just
> > > don't have the developer bandwidth to maintain
> > > multiple
> > > branches on any of our software. But none of our
> > > software is intended for server, long-lived
> > > boxes,
> > > either. It's all end user focused stuff.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > That is how I ended up reporting bugs that had
> > > > been
> > > > fixed. It is a wide
> > > >
> > > > problem; I mention Xiphos, not as a bad
> > > > example, but
> > > > because I happened
> > > >
> > > > to remember the version numbers.
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > The same would be true of Sword. 1.8.1 is not just
> > > a
> > > bugfix release of the 1.8 series. It introduced
> > > some
> > > minor new functionality so, technically, it would
> > > not
> > > have been permitted into the Debian repository if
> > > anyone
> > > was checking closely. This is just how we handle
> > > our
> > > software, again, because we lack the manpower to
> > > keep
> > > multiple development streams flowing.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > I would, again, submit that your issue is actually
> > > with your chosen distribution. Its documentation
> > > appears
> > > to be inadequate, and it's lulled you into using
> > > a
> > > distribution that's not targeting your use case.
> > > You
> > > might try running Fedora (or Ubuntu and not
> > > staying on
> > > LTS versions) which have much more generous
> > > update
> > > policies. I can tell you, for instance, that
> > > Xiphos
> > > compiles very nicely on current Fedora versions
> > > with a
> > > few very simple commands. I happen to know this
> > > because
> > > I maintain both our Xiphos CI process and the
> > > packages
> > > in the repositories for Xiphos. Now, I haven't
> > > updated
> > > the packages to 4.2.1 yet, for Xiphos, because I
> > > was
> > > busy helping with the CI and the release of
> > > 4.2.1, but
> > > due to the CI I know that compiling for Fedora 32
> > > will
> > > be a breeze.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Compiling for Ubuntu is a little more of a
> > > challenge,
> > > because of the missing dependencies, but Caleb is
> > > working on create a dedicated repository on
> > > Ubuntu's
> > > infrastructure just for that. And Caleb, myself,
> > > Dom,
> > > and Karl are all working to resolve those issues
> > > so
> > > that, in the future, a 4.3 or 4.4 will be able to
> > > make
> > > it back into the Debian repos and eventually into
> > > the
> > > Ubuntu "universe" repositories.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > So maybe give us a shot, still, on a distro that's
> > > meant for you? :)
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --Greg
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Tom
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Tom Sullivan
> > > >
> > > > info at BeForgiven.INFO
> > > >
> > > > FAX: 815-301-2835
> > > >
> > > > ---------------------
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On 5/13/20 5:21 PM, Greg Hellings wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > > On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 3:57 PM Tom Sullivan
> > > > <info at beforgiven.info
> > > >
> > > > > <mailto:info at beforgiven.info>>
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Y'all:
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > > First, I recognize that as a writer and
> > > > long
> > > > retired developer and
> > > >
> > > > > engineer (and thus obsolete) that in
> > > > terms of
> > > > technical issues, I am
> > > >
> > > > > way
> > > >
> > > > > out of my league with all you C++
> > > > programmers
> > > > and experts.
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Second, I want to thank all of you for
> > > > your
> > > > hard work. Compared to what
> > > >
> > > > > is available for Windows and Mac users,
> > > > available Bible software and
> > > >
> > > > > tools are sparse. You work as volunteers
> > > > and on
> > > > a shoestring budget.
> > > >
> > > > > Very many thanks. Without your work, I
> > > > would be
> > > > back to books and paper
> > > >
> > > > > without being able to search, compare
> > > > versions,
> > > > etc., with such ease.
> > > >
> > > > > Linux users are definitely an under
> > > > served
> > > > people group and you fill a
> > > >
> > > > > big need.
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Some of you may remember my SwordHammer
> > > > project. Frankly, it has
> > > >
> > > > > crashed
> > > >
> > > > > and burned. Due to an architecture
> > > > decision
> > > > that was not the best, it
> > > >
> > > > > became unwieldy. And now, due to changes
> > > > in my
> > > > life, I cannot continue,
> > > >
> > > > > though I had started on a new
> > > > architecture.
> > > > This has two consequences:
> > > >
> > > > > 1. There probably is not any longer
> > > > reason to
> > > > continue on this list
> > > >
> > > > > much
> > > >
> > > > > longer.
> > > >
> > > > > 2. I got an appreciation for the huge
> > > > problem
> > > > caused by incompatible
> > > >
> > > > > Linux distros. For example, I did not
> > > > know that
> > > > Ubuntu users were
> > > >
> > > > > limited to sudo, instead of being able to
> > > > run
> > > > as root.
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Many of my previous interactions with
> > > > this list
> > > > have been caused by my
> > > >
> > > > > use of obsolete versions. I cannot help
> > > > it. I
> > > > seem only able to install
> > > >
> > > > > packages from the Debian repository (or
> > > > download a *.deb suitable for
> > > >
> > > > > Debian Buster and install). I recently
> > > > tried to
> > > > compile and install
> > > >
> > > > > Sword (which worked), BibleTime (which
> > > > crashed), and Xiphos (which I
> > > >
> > > > > was
> > > >
> > > > > not able to compile by various tries.)
> > > > There
> > > > are errors in the docs,
> > > >
> > > > > and
> > > >
> > > > > discrepancies between docs, and who knows
> > > > what.) I failed. So I am
> > > >
> > > > > stuck, and that is not mainly your fault.
> > > > The
> > > > problem is that there is
> > > >
> > > > > no Linux-wide packaging or installation
> > > > system.
> > > > It may or may not be
> > > >
> > > > > technically feasible, I don't know). When
> > > > things go wrong, I often have
> > > >
> > > > > no idea how to fix them.
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > > You really shouldn't have to download any
> > > > files.
> > > > You should only have to
> > > >
> > > > > run "sudo apt update && sudo apt install
> > > > bibletime". Or, if you want to
> > > >
> > > > > compile BibleTime from source but use the
> > > > packaged
> > > > Sword library, "sudo
> > > >
> > > > > apt install libsword-dev". Currently, Xiphos
> > > > is not
> > > > compatible with
> > > >
> > > > > Debian/Ubuntu because it depends on ancient
> > > > libraries that are not
> > > >
> > > > > available in those distributions anymore.
> > > > However,
> > > > packagers for those
> > > >
> > > > > distros, until recently, were maintaining a
> > > > heavily
> > > > patched version of
> > > >
> > > > > Xiphos that was avilable in their
> > > > repositories. All
> > > > that was needed was
> > > >
> > > > > "sudo apt install xiphos". No downloading or
> > > > building or manually
> > > >
> > > > > finding dependencies.
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > > So I have two suggestions here, but let
> > > > me
> > > > start with an analogy.
> > > >
> > > > > When I
> > > >
> > > > > have to buy a new vehicle, my concern is
> > > > not if
> > > > the seat is nice and
> > > >
> > > > > the
> > > >
> > > > > radio works and the vanity light works. I
> > > > want
> > > > it to safely take me
> > > >
> > > > > where I want to go. If there is a rip in
> > > > the
> > > > seat or dents in the body
> > > >
> > > > > or some rust or something, I can live
> > > > with
> > > > that. So, I am willing to
> > > >
> > > > > live with what is in the repositories and
> > > > not
> > > > waste everybody else's
> > > >
> > > > > time with bug reports. I apologize for
> > > > doing
> > > > that. It was not
> > > >
> > > > > intentional, but that is what happened.
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Suggestion 1: Clean up documentation.
> > > > Prime
> > > > exhibit: May Crosswire page
> > > >
> > > > > refers to Sword 1.8.0 with link for
> > > > months with
> > > > no mention of 1.8.1.
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > > I'm not sure where you're looking. This is
> > > > the
> > > > download page for Sword
> > > >
> > > > > source
> > > > http://crosswire.org/sword/develop/index.jsp
> > > > and it mentions
> > > >
> > > > > 1.8.1 without incident.
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Suggestion 2: For the more popular
> > > > distros,
> > > > provide ready-to-go
> > > >
> > > > > packages, .deb files (or equivalent, such
> > > > as
> > > > .rpm) for installs and
> > > >
> > > > > updates, even if they do not hit the
> > > > repositories until later. This
> > > >
> > > > > will
> > > >
> > > > > get users access who are not experts. In
> > > > my
> > > > opinion, for what it is
> > > >
> > > > > worth, this is at least as important as
> > > > new
> > > > features. Also allow users
> > > >
> > > > > an option to automatically check for
> > > > updates
> > > > and tell where to get a
> > > >
> > > > > new
> > > >
> > > > > package. I understand that this takes
> > > > time and
> > > > work. I would rather get
> > > >
> > > > > some new features and bug fixes, and be
> > > > able to
> > > > get and use them, than
> > > >
> > > > > new features I will never see because I
> > > > can't
> > > > compile or something. I
> > > >
> > > > > rather think that others are also in my
> > > > position as well.
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > > This is usually a Very Bad Idea for upstream
> > > > projects. Every distro has
> > > >
> > > > > its own quirks, foibles, and differences. For
> > > > instance, gtkhtml is still
> > > >
> > > > > avilable on Fedora but not on Ubuntu or
> > > > Debian. As
> > > > such, Xiphos can be
> > > >
> > > > > compiled rather readily on Fedora but not on
> > > > Debian/Ubuntu without heavy
> > > >
> > > > > patching of the source to disable the editor
> > > > features. Those are details
> > > >
> > > > > already managed by the packagers of those
> > > > distributions and are quite a
> > > >
> > > > > nightmare for every upstream project to keep
> > > > track
> > > > of. Nor is it easy to
> > > >
> > > > > keep separate the very tiny tweaks that make
> > > > up the
> > > > Debian -> Ubuntu ->
> > > >
> > > > > Mint/Pop/etc food chain where downstream
> > > > distributions consume upstream
> > > >
> > > > > packages in some manner. Providing a build is
> > > > not
> > > > something upstream
> > > >
> > > > > projects like Sword ought to do.
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Should our docs be updated so that they work
> > > > in
> > > > those distros, where
> > > >
> > > > > possible? Yes. But it sounds like most of
> > > > your
> > > > difficulty was with the
> > > >
> > > > > package manager on the Debian (or Ubuntu?)
> > > > system
> > > > you were using. For an
> > > >
> > > > > end user, you should have just "sudo apt
> > > > install
> > > > <my pacage>" and been
> > > >
> > > > > able to get along without trouble. The fact
> > > > you
> > > > weren't was a failure on
> > > >
> > > > > the part of the distribution. Not on Sword,
> > > > Crosswire, BibleTime, or
> > > >
> > > > > Xiphos. I have no idea what your ultimate
> > > > goal is,
> > > > though, so I can't
> > > >
> > > > > give you more particular details than that.
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > > --Greg
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > > For what it is worth, and sorry it is so
> > > > long.
> > > > Sorry again for wasting
> > > >
> > > > > all your time in the past. God bless you
> > > > and
> > > > keep up all the good work.
> > > >
> > > > > It is not perfect, but it is definitely
> > > > good
> > > > and I use your stuff many
> > > >
> > > > > hours a week and every day.
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Sincerely,
> > > >
> > > > > Tom Sullivan
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > > --
> > > >
> > > > > Tom Sullivan
> > > >
> > > > > info at BeForgiven.INFO
> > > >
> > > > > FAX: 815-301-2835
> > > >
> > > > > ---------------------
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > >
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> > > > sword-devel at crosswire.org
> > > >
> > > > > <mailto:sword-devel at crosswire.org>
> > > >
> > > > >
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