[sword-devel] NASB Psalm titles

Fri May 8 09:30:37 MST 2020

Good morning!

So, lots of conversation.  I've read it all and can't determine if there
is still a problem to be fixed.

First, it sounds like Tom is using an old version of software.  Please
be sure you are using the latest version of software before pursuing
problems.  It sounds like Karl is saying that the latest version of
Xiphos works.  Is this correct?

SWORD has always attempted to leave canonical titles in the display,
even if headings are turned off.  We may have had bugs over the years
causing this to not worked, but I hope it hasn't been so often as to
make anyone think this is how SWORD has "always" worked.  I confirm that
asking for Psalm 5.1 without headings turned on still returns the
canonical title (and correctly strips out the non-canonical title) there.

"canonical" in OSIS for Bibles does indeed mean "what was originally in
the Bible."  It does not not mean "was was originally in the NASB."  It
is meant as a utility to differentiate editorial material from the
original work (=Bible; not NASB).  OSIS canonical when encoding a Bible
mean what we all think canonical means.  It is a statement about what
this edition claims is there in the original "Bible", however that
edition defines the term "Bible".

SWORD /should/ mark all canonical titles appropriately so they can be
rendered differently, if that is the desire.  Checking the NASB, they
are rendered appropriately in an element with:

class="title psalm canonical"

So, is there any issue we need to address?

Troy

On 5/8/20 8:42 AM, Tom Sullivan wrote:
> My reference to verse numbers was only to show that others also
> considered the Psalm titles to be canonical.
>
> Tom Sullivan
> info at BeForgiven.INFO
> FAX: 815-301-2835
> ---------------------
>
>
> On 5/8/20 11:01 AM, David Haslam wrote:
>> The original Hebrew text had no “verse numbers”.
>>
>> It’s anachronistic to assert that it did.
>>
>> See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chapters_and_verses_of_the_Bible
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chapters_and_verses_of_the_Bible?wprov=sfti1>
>>
>> Modern printed editions of the MT have verse numbers “retrofitted”
>> simply for ease of use.
>>
>> The Wikipedia article on Psalms is also instructive.
>> How Psalms are numbered and versified is quite a complex matter.
>> It’s just one of the factors we have to take account of under
>> Alternative Versification.
>>
>> David
>>
>> Sent from ProtonMail Mobile
>>
>>
>> On Fri, May 8, 2020 at 15:49, Tom Sullivan <info at beforgiven.info
>> <mailto:info at beforgiven.info>> wrote:
>>> Y'all:
>>>
>>> My Biblia Hebraica treats Psalm titles as the first verse, indicating
>>> biblical canonacity and in line with Hebrew versification.
>>>
>>> Note the following from OSIS doc, OSIS.pdf:
>>>
>>> Appendix B.2.10 titles
>>> The type attribute on the title element is used to allow special
>>> rendering of particular titles, as well as
>>> searching for particular types of titles in the text.identify the type
>>> of note that appears in the text. Note that
>>> the values for the type attribute must be entered exactly as shown, all
>>> others must use the "x-" extension
>>> mechanism.
>>> If the user needs to record a type of title in the text that is not
>>> covered by these values, please use the OSIS
>>> attribute extension mechanism, "x-" in front of the name of your value
>>> for this attribute.
>>> .
>>> .
>>> psalm Use in the Psalms where what are considered "titles" in the
>>> English text are actually numbered
>>> as verses in the Hebrew text.
>>>
>>> David's point about canonicity is well taken, but we must consider:
>>> 1. Are we considering canonicity with respect to the NASB as published,
>>> OR
>>> 2. Are we considering canonicity with respect to how the NASB
>>> publishers
>>> saw it, that is that the Scripture text is cannonical. If we make this
>>> decision, we are simply electronically duplicating the paper
>>> publication.
>>>
>>> IMHO, 2. is the far better choice.
>>>
>>> Hope this helps, and thanks again to all.
>>>
>>> Tom Sullivan
>>> info at BeForgiven.INFO
>>> FAX: 815-301-2835
>>> ---------------------
>>>
>>> On 5/8/20 10:28 AM, David Haslam wrote:
>>>> One of the subtleties of OSIS is that the canonical attribute is
>>>> actually not a theological matter.
>>>>
>>>> It’s easy to jump to the wrong conclusion that SWORD treats it as
>>> if it was.
>>>> It’s actually a technical attribute relating to the published work it
>>>> represents in digital format.
>>>> So it can just as well appear in a Commentary module as a Bible
>>> module.
>>>> Anything with canonical=“false” should in theory at least be only
>>>> because the marked text was not in the original work.
>>>>
>>>> Then the question becomes “What was the original work?”
>>>>
>>>> I will leave you to ponder....
>>>>
>>>> David
>>>>
>>>> Sent from ProtonMail Mobile
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, May 8, 2020 at 15:09, Karl Kleinpaste <karl at kleinpaste.org
>>>> <mailto:karl at kleinpaste.org>> wrote:
>>>>> On 5/8/20 10:00 AM, Tom Sullivan wrote:
>>>>>> because Psalm titles are canonical, front-ends should put a
>>> difference
>>>>>> in display between them and human editor supplied titles.
>>>>>
>>>>> It's a fine idea, but it requires (in the xhtml case) the engine
>>> to wrap
>>>>> such titles in a suitable <span></span> so that a CSS control can
>>> put it
>>>>> to use, with appropriate new default render header content for it.
>>>>>
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