[sword-devel] Japanese Bibles in Beta and some other stuff

[DM Smith]

Very glad to have the input.

I had set it to default on as it is derived from a print aide, where one doesn’t have the choice. I guessed that Japanese would be used to seeing it and especially if it is traditionally rendered above and in half size font (i.e. not in parens afterward) that it wouldn’t be a bother. Also the mechanism of HTML5/XHTML Ruby doesn’t allow for Ruby to be toggled. It is always shown.

While our mechanism is “OSISglosses”, it really isn’t a general purpose mechanism if it is meant to be rendered like Japanese Ruby.

I’ve been reading the HTML5 and CSS specifications for Ruby and the Japanese use of it. So the following is from a first reading.

Also, reading about the mechanisms of Ruby it is not as simple as our mechanism has it.

There are two models for specifying. The notion is that one has a base text (Ruby Base, <rb>) and a Ruby representation (Ruby Text, <rt>). These can be represented as alternating or as parallel.
Alternating:
<ruby><rb>A<rt>a<rb>B<rt>b</ruby>
Parallel:
<ruby><rb>A<rb>B<rt>a<rt>b</ruby>
(In HTML5 the closing tags can often be omitted, XHTML requires them.)

The fall back mechanism <rp>(</rp> … <rp>)</rp> allows for rendering in an inline fashion. And is ignored by renderers that can do it properly. However there are rules to rendering the fall back that a dumb renderer won’t follow. (I.e. a dumb renderer will render text within tags that it doesn’t understand, doing nothing special with the text except to apply CSS to it.)

Alternating:
<ruby><rb>A<rp>(</rp><rt>a<rp>)</rp><rb>B<rp>(</rp><rt>B<rp>)</rp></ruby>
Parallel:
<ruby><rb>A<rb>B<rp>(</rp><rt>a<rt>b<rp>)</rp></ruby>
or even
<ruby><rb>A<rb>B<rp>(</rp><rt>a<rp>)</rp><rp>(</rp><rt>b<rp>)</rp></ruby>

All of these are to be rendered the same for a linear fashion. AB(ab)
However a dumb browser cannot. Note, a dumb browser can only render the first parallel properly.

This mechanism also allows for text to be w/in <ruby> without Ruby Text. This is accomplished by an empty <rt> element.
A(a)BC(c) would be specified by
Alternating:
<ruby><rb>A<rt>a<rb>B<rb>C<rt>c</ruby>
Parallel:
<ruby><rb>A<rb>B<rb>C<rt>a<rt><rt>c</ruby>

The Alternating form allows for <rb> to be dropped when everything w/in the <ruby> has <rt>, but then </rt> is required.
<ruby>A<rt>a</rt>B<rt>b</rt></ruby>

The length of <rb> and <rt> content doesn’t need to match. It could be that either has more glyphs.

Our OSIS mechanism only allows for 1 <rb> and 1 <rt> pair at a time.
<w gloss=“a">A</w><w gloss=“b”>B</w>
is rendered:
<ruby><rb>A</rb><rp>(</rp><rt>a</rt><rp>)</rp></ruby><ruby><rb>B</rb><rp>(</rp><rt>b</rt><rp>)</rp></ruby>
But it should be rendered as 1 ruby element in parallel form.
<ruby><rb>A</rb><rb>B</rb><rp>(</rp><rt>a</rt><rt>b</rt><rp>)</rp></ruby>

It might be tempting to combine <rb> elements in a run, so that A(a)B(b):
<ruby>AB<rt>ab</rt><ruby>
or in OSIS
<w gloss=“ab”>AB</w>
but this isn’t semantically correct and may not be presentation correct if A is a very wide glyph and a is a very narrow glyph (or visa versa). But when presented inline, it’ll look right.

I mention all this because I don’t think the Japanese Ruby and its representation in (x)HTML is a general purpose representation of glosses in general.

In ancient Greek texts, glosses are not always above within the line and certainly aren’t at a character level. A gloss might be significantly longer or shorter than the text that it refers. Different scribes had different mechanisms for their glosses. Sometimes, they are in the margins. And unlike Japanese, they are not at the glyph level). Many of these, we’d identify as note elements.

I’m also curious and haven’t yet explored how morphology and lemmas at the word level would be marked up in conjunction with ruby at the character level. The <w> element would require nesting.

In Him,
DM


> On Aug 22, 2017, at 4:31 AM, refdoc at gmx.net wrote:
> 
> The answer I got goes into similar direction as Michael's, the translations are old and the signs used often hard to figure out. Ruby helps even people who would not use it in other contexts.
> 
> That said, the OSIS used is not Japanese specific and could have many other uses, so it should be toggled, but probably in light of above toggle on be default
> 
> Sent from my mobile. Please forgive shortness, typos and weird autocorrects.
> 
> 
> -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: Re: [sword-devel] Japanese Bibles in Beta and some other stuff
> From: Michael H 
> To: SWORD Developers' Collaboration Forum 
> CC: 
> 
> 
> This is an honor culture issue... (which Peter has previously sent me useful, if a little off-target, info on.) 
> 
> My understanding about ruby in Japanese (which is limited to a few conversations and having been cc'd on emails which danced around the issue among others like leading and the need for monospaced type...) is that ruby is perceived as a low literacy thing. That is, whether it's helpful or not, admitting it's helpful puts one in a place of disadvantage: Saying "yes" is like saying "I can't read." So, in an honor culture like Japan, it's better to have glosses on by default, and gauge the negative feedback about how much it interferes with advanced level reading, than it is to ask "should ruby be on?" which creates an honor barrier. (to a very low degree.) 
> 
> To explain a little further.
> 
> In biblical contexts, many of the words will be unusual for those without a biblical background, and not just gradeschoolers. depending on the ideagrams chosen for thing like "temple" and "christ", even university grads with no exposure to Christianity are stumped by some of the words. So the 'right' answer is that ruby on by default will help many more people, especially students and those being reached in evangelism. 
> 
> Even knowing this, the 'correct' answer you may get if you ask theologians is "no", because admitting ruby is needed is saying negative things.. However, "No" in an Honor culture is an answer that is hard to give. You just don't say no. It's like being rude, but to yourself.  It's a cultural taboo. So if you do ask, phrase it as an option b or option a question, and not as a Yes/No question. 
> 
> And again, I really don't get this honor culture thing, because it's specific context varies across asia, but that's the understanding I have. 
> 
> On Mon, Aug 21, 2017 at 5:31 PM, Peter von Kaehne <refdoc at gmx.net <mailto:refdoc at gmx.net>> wrote:
> On Mon, 2017-08-21 at 15:19 -0400, Karl Kleinpaste wrote:
> > On 08/20/2017 04:25 PM, DM Smith wrote:
> > > The markup is using OSIS in a standard way.
> >  Should glosses be a "default on" kind of option?
> 
> >
> > Do Japanese glosses fit under a similar "really, everybody wants
> > this" category?
> 
> I am asking just now. I guess I will have an answer tomorrow.
> 
> Peter
> 
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