[sword-devel] Revelation 15:3 in KJV

Thu Mar 26 17:52:41 MST 2009

I added a bug report here (along with 24 other verses which appear to be
badly tagged):
http://www.crosswire.org/bugs/browse/MOD-76

God Bless,
Ben
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Multitudes, multitudes,
   in the valley of decision!
For the day of the LORD is near
   in the valley of decision.

Giôên 3:14 (ESV)

On Sun, Mar 22, 2009 at 12:13 PM, DM Smith <dmsmith at crosswire.org> wrote:

> I meant to reply earlier. The Strong's Numbers in the KJV NT was done by
> volunteers. The quality differed from one volunteer to another. The tagger
> that they used, Troy developed. I haven't looked at it, though. From what I
> heard, (I haven't looked at it though), is that the tagger took a Greek
> module with Strong's Numbers and presented it with the KJV text, verse by
> verse. The user then paired words from the Greek to the English.
>
> In any translation, from one language to another, it is not always one for
> one. Several situations occur:
> 1) A source word is translated into one target word.
> 2) A source phrase is translated into  one target word.
> 3) A source word is translated into a target phrase.
> 4) A source phrase is translated into a target phrase.
> 5) Several source words are translated into several target words and the
> result is that the mapping is fragmented. (Look for x-split in the KJV
> source)
> There may be others.
>
> Ideally, the original authors would have kept their original interlinear
> translation, but after 300 years, that is a bit too much to ask :)
>
> In the KJV2003 effort every Greek word from the original is present in the
> KJV as a <w> element even if it does not have content. There was no effort
> in either the 2003 or the 2006 effort to place these in a meaningful
> location. Empty w tags should not be shown. The src attribute was used to
> map to the position of the Greek word in the source text.
>
> Anyway, the Greek indefinite article, G3588, is probably the most common
> word that is not translated into English. When it is not translated, it is
> typically combined with the word that follows. This was part of the 2006
> effort. For example "the house" (o oikos) might translate "house" and be
> represented as <w lemma="strong:3588 strong:xxxx">house</w>. (I'm doing this
> from memory, so it might not be exact.) In this case the word "house" in
> English is translated by two words in Greek, o oikos.
>
> Yes, this verse needs help. I'm going into this level of detail, because
> this is not the only verse that needs help. I think that there needs to be a
> new effort to analyze the KJV for potential problems and then fix them.
>
> The source for Rev 15:3 is: (I've remove the morph attributes and added new
> lines for clarity.)
> <w lemma="strong:G40" src="35"></w>
> <w lemma="strong:G935" src="33"></w>
> <w lemma="strong:G3598" src="30"></w>
> <w lemma="strong:G3841" src="25"></w>
> <w lemma="strong:G2316" src="23"></w>
> <w lemma="strong:G2041" src="19"></w>
> <w lemma="strong:G721" src="13"></w>
> <w lemma="strong:G5603" src="11"></w>
> <w lemma="strong:G2316" src="8"></w>
> <w lemma="strong:G1401" src="6"></w>
> <w lemma="strong:G2532" src="1">And</w>
> <w lemma="strong:G103" src="2">they sing</w>
> <w lemma="strong:G3588 strong:G5603" src="3 4">the song</w>
> <w lemma="strong:G3475" src="5">of Moses</w>
> <w lemma="strong:G3588" src="7">the servant</w>
> <w lemma="strong:G2532" src="9">of God</w>,
> <w lemma="strong:G3588" src="10">and</w>
> <w lemma="strong:G3588" src="12">the song</w>
> <w lemma="strong:G3004" src="14">of the Lamb</w>,
> <w lemma="strong:G3173" src="15">saying</w>,
> <w lemma="strong:G2532" src="16">Great</w>
> <w lemma="strong:G2298" src="17">and</w>
> <w lemma="strong:G3588" src="18">marvellous</w>
> <transChange type="added">are</transChange>
> <w lemma="strong:G2962" src="21">thy</w>
> <w lemma="strong:G4675" src="20">works</w>,
> <w lemma="strong:G3588" src="22">Lord</w>
> <w lemma="strong:G3588" src="24">God</w>
> <w lemma="strong:G1342" src="26">Almighty</w>;
> <w lemma="strong:G2532" src="27">just</w>
> <w lemma="strong:G228" src="28">and</w>
> <w lemma="strong:G3588" src="29">true</w>
> <transChange type="added">are</transChange>
> <w lemma="strong:G3588" src="32">thy</w>
> <w lemma="strong:G4675" src="31">ways</w>,
> thou
> <w lemma="strong:G3588" src="34">King</w>
> <w lemma="strong:G40" src="36">of saints</w>.
> <milestone resp="pdy 2003-12-30-11:12" type="x-strongsMarkup"/>
>
>
> Note the milestone at the end. The resp attribute give the initials of the
> one who did the Strong's mapping. This is present in every verse. If we find
> that one by pdy is bad, then we can look at others by pdy.
>
> While I have studied Koine Greek, it has been over 25 years ago. If someone
> more current than me can fix this, I'll be glad to update the source.
>
> Hope this helps. BTW, if a bug is filed in Jira under MOD (aka Modules) it
> is more likely to be fixed.
>
> In Him,
>        DM
>
>
> On Mar 21, 2009, at 7:46 PM, Peter von Kaehne wrote:
>
>  The verse appears odd indeed - at least in xiphos. I have not looked at
>> the actual entry in the module. But I also think that your list of strongs
>> for this verse is not complete. 3588 is the greek definite article, so it
>> appears commonly in dual strong entry and your printout does not seem to
>> include the second entry.
>>
>> Peter
>> -------- Original-Nachricht --------
>>
>>> Datum: Sat, 21 Mar 2009 16:01:00 +1100
>>> Von: Ben Morgan <benpmorgan at gmail.com>
>>> An: "SWORD Developers\' Collaboration Forum" <sword-devel at crosswire.org>
>>> Betreff: [sword-devel] Revelation 15:3 in KJV
>>>
>>
>>  Revelation 15:3 in the KJV is a little odd in that it starts with a lot
>>> of
>>> empty strong's number tags and appears to be badly tagged. I am using KJV
>>> 2.3
>>>
>>> As you can see, <3588>'s get applied to lots of the words where they
>>> don't
>>> belong:
>>> 3 <40><935><3598><3841><2316><2041><721><5603><2316><1401>And<2532> they
>>> sing<103> the song<3588><5603> of Moses<3475> the servant<3588> of
>>> God<2532>, and<3588> the song<3588> of the Lamb<3004>, saying<3173>,
>>> Great<2532> and<2298> marvellous<3588> are thy<2962> works<4675>,
>>> Lord<3588>
>>> God<3588> Almighty<1342>; just<2532> and<228> true<3588> are thy<3588>
>>> ways<4675>, thou King<3588> of saints<40>.
>>> God Bless,
>>> Ben
>>>
>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> Multitudes, multitudes,
>>>   in the valley of decision!
>>> For the day of the LORD is near
>>>   in the valley of decision.
>>>
>>> Giôên 3:14 (ESV)
>>>
>>
>> --
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>>
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