[sword-devel] Revelation 15:3 in KJV

Sat Mar 21 18:13:29 MST 2009

I meant to reply earlier. The Strong's Numbers in the KJV NT was done  
by volunteers. The quality differed from one volunteer to another. The  
tagger that they used, Troy developed. I haven't looked at it, though.  
 From what I heard, (I haven't looked at it though), is that the  
tagger took a Greek module with Strong's Numbers and presented it with  
the KJV text, verse by verse. The user then paired words from the  
Greek to the English.

In any translation, from one language to another, it is not always one  
for one. Several situations occur:
1) A source word is translated into one target word.
2) A source phrase is translated into  one target word.
3) A source word is translated into a target phrase.
4) A source phrase is translated into a target phrase.
5) Several source words are translated into several target words and  
the result is that the mapping is fragmented. (Look for x-split in the  
KJV source)
There may be others.

Ideally, the original authors would have kept their original  
interlinear translation, but after 300 years, that is a bit too much  
to ask :)

In the KJV2003 effort every Greek word from the original is present in  
the KJV as a <w> element even if it does not have content. There was  
no effort in either the 2003 or the 2006 effort to place these in a  
meaningful location. Empty w tags should not be shown. The src  
attribute was used to map to the position of the Greek word in the  
source text.

Anyway, the Greek indefinite article, G3588, is probably the most  
common word that is not translated into English. When it is not  
translated, it is typically combined with the word that follows. This  
was part of the 2006 effort. For example "the house" (o oikos) might  
translate "house" and be represented as <w lemma="strong:3588  
strong:xxxx">house</w>. (I'm doing this from memory, so it might not  
be exact.) In this case the word "house" in English is translated by  
two words in Greek, o oikos.

Yes, this verse needs help. I'm going into this level of detail,  
because this is not the only verse that needs help. I think that there  
needs to be a new effort to analyze the KJV for potential problems and  
then fix them.

The source for Rev 15:3 is: (I've remove the morph attributes and  
added new lines for clarity.)
<w lemma="strong:G40" src="35"></w>
<w lemma="strong:G935" src="33"></w>
<w lemma="strong:G3598" src="30"></w>
<w lemma="strong:G3841" src="25"></w>
<w lemma="strong:G2316" src="23"></w>
<w lemma="strong:G2041" src="19"></w>
<w lemma="strong:G721" src="13"></w>
<w lemma="strong:G5603" src="11"></w>
<w lemma="strong:G2316" src="8"></w>
<w lemma="strong:G1401" src="6"></w>
<w lemma="strong:G2532" src="1">And</w>
<w lemma="strong:G103" src="2">they sing</w>
<w lemma="strong:G3588 strong:G5603" src="3 4">the song</w>
<w lemma="strong:G3475" src="5">of Moses</w>
<w lemma="strong:G3588" src="7">the servant</w>
<w lemma="strong:G2532" src="9">of God</w>,
<w lemma="strong:G3588" src="10">and</w>
<w lemma="strong:G3588" src="12">the song</w>
<w lemma="strong:G3004" src="14">of the Lamb</w>,
<w lemma="strong:G3173" src="15">saying</w>,
<w lemma="strong:G2532" src="16">Great</w>
<w lemma="strong:G2298" src="17">and</w>
<w lemma="strong:G3588" src="18">marvellous</w>
<transChange type="added">are</transChange>
<w lemma="strong:G2962" src="21">thy</w>
<w lemma="strong:G4675" src="20">works</w>,
<w lemma="strong:G3588" src="22">Lord</w>
<w lemma="strong:G3588" src="24">God</w>
<w lemma="strong:G1342" src="26">Almighty</w>;
<w lemma="strong:G2532" src="27">just</w>
<w lemma="strong:G228" src="28">and</w>
<w lemma="strong:G3588" src="29">true</w>
<transChange type="added">are</transChange>
<w lemma="strong:G3588" src="32">thy</w>
<w lemma="strong:G4675" src="31">ways</w>,
thou
<w lemma="strong:G3588" src="34">King</w>
<w lemma="strong:G40" src="36">of saints</w>.
<milestone resp="pdy 2003-12-30-11:12" type="x-strongsMarkup"/>

Note the milestone at the end. The resp attribute give the initials of  
the one who did the Strong's mapping. This is present in every verse.  
If we find that one by pdy is bad, then we can look at others by pdy.

While I have studied Koine Greek, it has been over 25 years ago. If  
someone more current than me can fix this, I'll be glad to update the  
source.

Hope this helps. BTW, if a bug is filed in Jira under MOD (aka  
Modules) it is more likely to be fixed.

In Him,
	DM

On Mar 21, 2009, at 7:46 PM, Peter von Kaehne wrote:

> The verse appears odd indeed - at least in xiphos. I have not looked  
> at the actual entry in the module. But I also think that your list  
> of strongs for this verse is not complete. 3588 is the greek  
> definite article, so it appears commonly in dual strong entry and  
> your printout does not seem to include the second entry.
>
> Peter
> -------- Original-Nachricht --------
>> Datum: Sat, 21 Mar 2009 16:01:00 +1100
>> Von: Ben Morgan <benpmorgan at gmail.com>
>> An: "SWORD Developers\' Collaboration Forum" <sword-devel at crosswire.org 
>> >
>> Betreff: [sword-devel] Revelation 15:3 in KJV
>
>> Revelation 15:3 in the KJV is a little odd in that it starts with a  
>> lot of
>> empty strong's number tags and appears to be badly tagged. I am  
>> using KJV
>> 2.3
>>
>> As you can see, <3588>'s get applied to lots of the words where  
>> they don't
>> belong:
>> 3 <40><935><3598><3841><2316><2041><721><5603><2316><1401>And<2532>  
>> they
>> sing<103> the song<3588><5603> of Moses<3475> the servant<3588> of
>> God<2532>, and<3588> the song<3588> of the Lamb<3004>, saying<3173>,
>> Great<2532> and<2298> marvellous<3588> are thy<2962> works<4675>,
>> Lord<3588>
>> God<3588> Almighty<1342>; just<2532> and<228> true<3588> are  
>> thy<3588>
>> ways<4675>, thou King<3588> of saints<40>.
>> God Bless,
>> Ben
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Multitudes, multitudes,
>>    in the valley of decision!
>> For the day of the LORD is near
>>    in the valley of decision.
>>
>> Giôên 3:14 (ESV)
>
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