Fwd: [sword-devel] Fwd: display greek accents in LXX and NT

Will Thimbleby sword-devel@crosswire.org
Thu, 20 Nov 2003 16:49:53 +0000


Begin forwarded message:

> From: Christian Walti <zwoerg@gmx.ch>
> Date: Thu Nov 20, 2003  3:57:37  pm Europe/London
> To: Will Thimbleby <wjt100@york.ac.uk>
> Subject: Re: [sword-devel] Fwd: display greek accents in LXX and NT
> Dear Sword-Team
> Thank you so much! Your answer was far more detailed that I could ever 
> imagine. Please continue your Work on providing a open-source bible 
> program for every-one! You do a great job!
> Christian Walti
> Stud. Theol. from Zurich, Kirchgasse 9 (the home of Zwinglianism)
> Am Mittwoch, 19.11.03 um 22:52 Uhr schrieb Will Thimbleby:
>> On Monday, November 17, 2003, at 06:16  pm, Keith Ralston wrote:
>>> In the discussion below, several groups of text are actually 
>>> identified.
>>> There are two main groups:  Textus Receptus and Critical Text.  The 
>>> Textus
>>> Receptus (TR) is a Greek text based on the original work of Erasmus 
>>> and was
>>> the Greek text of the Reformation period.  It is actually based on 
>>> the
>>> critical work of Erasmus and a few other scholar.  Several editions 
>>> were
>>> released by Erasmus and his collaborators in the early 1600s.  They 
>>> utilized
>>> the manuscript evidence they had at the time in their work.  Erasmus'
>>> original goal was to provide the Greek text that served as a basis 
>>> for the
>>> Latin Vulgate.  TR was used in the original translation commission 
>>> by King
>>> James in 1611.  A more in depth description can be found at
>>> http://www.solagroup.org/articles/faqs/faq_0032.html.
>>> The critical text represents a tradition started by Wescott-Hort 
>>> (WH) in
>>> 1881 in which additional manuscript evidence was used in an attempt 
>>> to
>>> improve the TR.  This proved to be extremely controversial because 
>>> of some
>>> of the variations between the TR and the WH text.  This tradition 
>>> has since
>>> continued.  The critical text is based on using a set methodology to
>>> evaluate variations found in the thousands of texts now available to
>>> biblical scholars.  The critical methodology has changed 
>>> significantly since
>>> 1881.  Anyone using a WH text for translation or interpretation work 
>>> would
>>> be using a significantly outdated text due to the changes in 
>>> methodology and
>>> the addition of texts in the last 120 years.
>>> Three main schools or forms of critical text exist: Nestle-Aland 
>>> (NA),
>>> United Bible Society (UBS), and the Majority Text.  NA and UBS texts
>>> represent two versions of the critical text that follow a similar
>>> methodology.  They only differ in how they value some of the 
>>> variations.
>>> The last several years have seen a concerted effort to bring the two 
>>> version
>>> into some form of unity.  The result being that the latest releases 
>>> of both
>>> texts are extremely close.  This methodology generally places an 
>>> emphasis on
>>> the oldest version of a particular variation.  However, this is an 
>>> extreme
>>> simplification of the methodology and many other factors come to 
>>> bear.  This
>>> explains how two groups using the same method can produce texts that 
>>> still
>>> vary from one another.
>>> The other critical text represents a different methodology 
>>> altogether.  The
>>> Majority Text (MAJ) uses a methodology that gives more value to the 
>>> variant
>>> supported by the greatest number of texts.  This differs from the 
>>> other
>>> approach in that the greatest number of texts occur later in 
>>> history.  Most
>>> are after the 8th century.  Some have assumed that the TR and MAJ 
>>> would be
>>> very close 
>>> (http://atschool.eduweb.co.uk/sbs777/vital/kjv/part1-3.html).
>>> The hypothesis was tested recently when a Majority Text was actually
>>> prepared by Hodges and Farstad in 1982 and another by Pierpoint and 
>>> Robinson
>>> in 1991.  The MAJ is also referred to as the Byzantine text because
>>> geographical area in which most of these texts were found.  A good
>>> discussion of this text can be found at
>>> http://www.bible-researcher.com/majority.html and
>>> http://www.bible.org/docs/soapbox/91b2.htm.
>>> Tischendorf's text can refer to two things.  Most important is a 
>>> copy of the
>>> Bible in Greek found by Count von Tischendorf at the monastery at the
>>> supposed location of Mount Sinai.  This is the oldest copy 
>>> containing most
>>> of the New Testament.  It is called Codex Sinaiticus and denoted in 
>>> critical
>>> notes with the Hebrew letter Aleph.
>>> In addition to publishing this and many other manuscripts, 
>>> Tischendorf also
>>> published a critical copy of the Greek New Testament with comments on
>>> critical methods.  His version deviated even more radically from the 
>>> TR than
>>> WH.  A bibliography with some of his work can be found at
>>> http://www.bible-researcher.com/bib-t.html.  I believe that a 
>>> reference to
>>> the Tischendorf text is actually a reference to his critical version 
>>> of the
>>> NT and not Codex Sinaiticus.  While historically interesting, this 
>>> would not
>>> be a good text for translating or interpreting.
>>> In order to managed and organize the huge number of documents (over 
>>> 5,000)
>>> that support the NT, the have been organized into families based 
>>> more or
>>> less on geographical distribution.  These families are Alexandrian,
>>> Byzantine/Majority Text, Caesarian, and Western text.  One criticism 
>>> of the
>>> UBS and NA texts by supporters of MAJ is that they give preference to
>>> Western texts.  This is due the earlier dating of the Western texts.
>>> http://faculty.bbc.edu/RDecker/rd_rsrc.htm#TextualCriticism and
>>> http://www.bible.org/docs/soapbox/soaptoc.htm contain several good 
>>> articles
>>> on textual criticism.
>>> Regarding the last question about NA and the texts available in 
>>> Sword, I'm
>>> not sure how the WHNU - Wescott-Hort with NA27/UBS4 variants was 
>>> compiled.
>>> UBS and NA are not directly available because they are controlled by
>>> copyright.  I believe a working copy of the latest text does exist 
>>> and can
>>> be had by obtaining a paid for key to unlock the text.  If you are 
>>> wanting
>>> to use Sword, I would go this route.  The other texts are included 
>>> because
>>> they are part of the public domain.
>>> I believe the Wescott-Hort with NA27/UBS4 variants contain the freely
>>> available WH text with the variants that exist between it and the 
>>> NA27/UBS4.
>>> I'm not sure how you can get from this copy to what you want.  I 
>>> believe
>>> that if you enable variants on this text you essentially have a 
>>> public
>>> domain copy of a mix of NA27/UBS4.  I am not sure.
>>> This may have been overkill, but I hope it helps.
>>> Keith
>>> P.S.  If I am not mistaken this is the type of issue for which the 
>>> forums
>>> were intended?
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: sword-devel-admin@crosswire.org
>>>> [mailto:sword-devel-admin@crosswire.org]On Behalf Of Simon
>>>> Sent: Mon, November 17, 2003 11:08 AM
>>>> To: sword-devel@crosswire.org
>>>> Subject: Re: [sword-devel] Fwd: display greek accents in LXX and NT
>>>> Hi,
>>>> I'm not an experd on greek texts, so maybe someone else could better
>>>> explain this, but this is what I know about it.
>>>> Nowadays there are 2 groups of text-families that are often used by
>>>> students; the Critical Text (Nestle-Aland) and the Majority Text
>>>> (Byzantine). Most students favor the Critical Text, which is based 
>>>> on
>>>> some few very old documents, above the Majority Text, which is 
>>>> based on
>>>> around 5000 manucripts, which are of later date.
>>>> As Sword modules the following texts are available:
>>>> Byzantine, Textus Receptus (Majority Texts)
>>>> Westcott-Hort (Critical Text)
>>>> In which of the 2 groups the Tischendorf text fitts, I don't know, 
>>>> but I
>>>> think it's a Critical Text.
>>>> But, if you're looking for a Nestle-Aland text, the best you can 
>>>> take is
>>>> the Westcott-Hort, which has also the variants of the NA27/UBS4 
>>>> text (I
>>>> haven't checked this, but it's what the module-info says)...
>>>> In Christ,
>>>> Simon
>>>> Will Thimbleby wrote:
>>>>> Hi guys,
>>>>> No idea how to answer the second question, can I leave it in your 
>>>>> hands.
>>>>> Cheers -Will
>>>>> Begin forwarded message:
>>>>>> From: macsword@macsword.com
>>>>>> Date: Fri Nov 14, 2003  4:57:22  pm Europe/London
>>>>>> To: william@macsword.com
>>>>>> Subject: display greek accents in LXX and NT
>>>>>> Reply-To: zwoerg@gmx.ch
>>>>>> Dear Mr. Thimbleby
>>>>>> First, I really like your bible programm, as the only osx-based
>>>>>> programm that can display the Biblia Hebraica with vowel points!
>>>>>> But I still have some problems with the greek texts:
>>>>>> 1) But yet I do not know how to make the greek accents work in the
>>>>>> LXX and NT texts?
>>>>>> 2) How far away from the Nestle-aland (which is commonly used at 
>>>>>> my
>>>>>> theological seminary) are the Greek-Versions of Tischendorf or the
>>>>>> Byzantinus-Text? Are they reliable? Is there a Possibility to
>>>>>> purchase the Nestle-Aland-Edition?
>>>>>> I hope you can answer my questions.
>>>>>> Yours sincerely
>>>>>> Christian Walti, Stud. Theol., Zürich
>>>>>> Christian Walti
>>>>>> zwoerg@gmx.ch
>>>>>> Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X; de-de) AppleWebKit/85
>>>>>> (KHTML, like Gecko) Safari/85
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