Fwd: [sword-devel] Fwd: display greek accents in LXX and NT
Will Thimbleby
sword-devel@crosswire.org
Thu, 20 Nov 2003 16:49:53 +0000
Cheers.
Begin forwarded message:
> From: Christian Walti <zwoerg@gmx.ch>
> Date: Thu Nov 20, 2003 3:57:37 pm Europe/London
> To: Will Thimbleby <wjt100@york.ac.uk>
> Subject: Re: [sword-devel] Fwd: display greek accents in LXX and NT
>
> Dear Sword-Team
>
> Thank you so much! Your answer was far more detailed that I could ever
> imagine. Please continue your Work on providing a open-source bible
> program for every-one! You do a great job!
>
> Christian Walti
> Stud. Theol. from Zurich, Kirchgasse 9 (the home of Zwinglianism)
>
>
> Am Mittwoch, 19.11.03 um 22:52 Uhr schrieb Will Thimbleby:
>
>>
>> On Monday, November 17, 2003, at 06:16 pm, Keith Ralston wrote:
>>
>>> In the discussion below, several groups of text are actually
>>> identified.
>>> There are two main groups: Textus Receptus and Critical Text. The
>>> Textus
>>> Receptus (TR) is a Greek text based on the original work of Erasmus
>>> and was
>>> the Greek text of the Reformation period. It is actually based on
>>> the
>>> critical work of Erasmus and a few other scholar. Several editions
>>> were
>>> released by Erasmus and his collaborators in the early 1600s. They
>>> utilized
>>> the manuscript evidence they had at the time in their work. Erasmus'
>>> original goal was to provide the Greek text that served as a basis
>>> for the
>>> Latin Vulgate. TR was used in the original translation commission
>>> by King
>>> James in 1611. A more in depth description can be found at
>>> http://www.solagroup.org/articles/faqs/faq_0032.html.
>>>
>>> The critical text represents a tradition started by Wescott-Hort
>>> (WH) in
>>> 1881 in which additional manuscript evidence was used in an attempt
>>> to
>>> improve the TR. This proved to be extremely controversial because
>>> of some
>>> of the variations between the TR and the WH text. This tradition
>>> has since
>>> continued. The critical text is based on using a set methodology to
>>> evaluate variations found in the thousands of texts now available to
>>> biblical scholars. The critical methodology has changed
>>> significantly since
>>> 1881. Anyone using a WH text for translation or interpretation work
>>> would
>>> be using a significantly outdated text due to the changes in
>>> methodology and
>>> the addition of texts in the last 120 years.
>>>
>>> Three main schools or forms of critical text exist: Nestle-Aland
>>> (NA),
>>> United Bible Society (UBS), and the Majority Text. NA and UBS texts
>>> represent two versions of the critical text that follow a similar
>>> methodology. They only differ in how they value some of the
>>> variations.
>>> The last several years have seen a concerted effort to bring the two
>>> version
>>> into some form of unity. The result being that the latest releases
>>> of both
>>> texts are extremely close. This methodology generally places an
>>> emphasis on
>>> the oldest version of a particular variation. However, this is an
>>> extreme
>>> simplification of the methodology and many other factors come to
>>> bear. This
>>> explains how two groups using the same method can produce texts that
>>> still
>>> vary from one another.
>>>
>>> The other critical text represents a different methodology
>>> altogether. The
>>> Majority Text (MAJ) uses a methodology that gives more value to the
>>> variant
>>> supported by the greatest number of texts. This differs from the
>>> other
>>> approach in that the greatest number of texts occur later in
>>> history. Most
>>> are after the 8th century. Some have assumed that the TR and MAJ
>>> would be
>>> very close
>>> (http://atschool.eduweb.co.uk/sbs777/vital/kjv/part1-3.html).
>>> The hypothesis was tested recently when a Majority Text was actually
>>> prepared by Hodges and Farstad in 1982 and another by Pierpoint and
>>> Robinson
>>> in 1991. The MAJ is also referred to as the Byzantine text because
>>> geographical area in which most of these texts were found. A good
>>> discussion of this text can be found at
>>> http://www.bible-researcher.com/majority.html and
>>> http://www.bible.org/docs/soapbox/91b2.htm.
>>>
>>> Tischendorf's text can refer to two things. Most important is a
>>> copy of the
>>> Bible in Greek found by Count von Tischendorf at the monastery at the
>>> supposed location of Mount Sinai. This is the oldest copy
>>> containing most
>>> of the New Testament. It is called Codex Sinaiticus and denoted in
>>> critical
>>> notes with the Hebrew letter Aleph.
>>> In addition to publishing this and many other manuscripts,
>>> Tischendorf also
>>> published a critical copy of the Greek New Testament with comments on
>>> critical methods. His version deviated even more radically from the
>>> TR than
>>> WH. A bibliography with some of his work can be found at
>>> http://www.bible-researcher.com/bib-t.html. I believe that a
>>> reference to
>>> the Tischendorf text is actually a reference to his critical version
>>> of the
>>> NT and not Codex Sinaiticus. While historically interesting, this
>>> would not
>>> be a good text for translating or interpreting.
>>>
>>> In order to managed and organize the huge number of documents (over
>>> 5,000)
>>> that support the NT, the have been organized into families based
>>> more or
>>> less on geographical distribution. These families are Alexandrian,
>>> Byzantine/Majority Text, Caesarian, and Western text. One criticism
>>> of the
>>> UBS and NA texts by supporters of MAJ is that they give preference to
>>> Western texts. This is due the earlier dating of the Western texts.
>>>
>>> http://faculty.bbc.edu/RDecker/rd_rsrc.htm#TextualCriticism and
>>> http://www.bible.org/docs/soapbox/soaptoc.htm contain several good
>>> articles
>>> on textual criticism.
>>>
>>> Regarding the last question about NA and the texts available in
>>> Sword, I'm
>>> not sure how the WHNU - Wescott-Hort with NA27/UBS4 variants was
>>> compiled.
>>> UBS and NA are not directly available because they are controlled by
>>> copyright. I believe a working copy of the latest text does exist
>>> and can
>>> be had by obtaining a paid for key to unlock the text. If you are
>>> wanting
>>> to use Sword, I would go this route. The other texts are included
>>> because
>>> they are part of the public domain.
>>>
>>> I believe the Wescott-Hort with NA27/UBS4 variants contain the freely
>>> available WH text with the variants that exist between it and the
>>> NA27/UBS4.
>>> I'm not sure how you can get from this copy to what you want. I
>>> believe
>>> that if you enable variants on this text you essentially have a
>>> public
>>> domain copy of a mix of NA27/UBS4. I am not sure.
>>>
>>> This may have been overkill, but I hope it helps.
>>>
>>> Keith
>>>
>>> P.S. If I am not mistaken this is the type of issue for which the
>>> forums
>>> were intended?
>>>
>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: sword-devel-admin@crosswire.org
>>>> [mailto:sword-devel-admin@crosswire.org]On Behalf Of Simon
>>>> Sent: Mon, November 17, 2003 11:08 AM
>>>> To: sword-devel@crosswire.org
>>>> Subject: Re: [sword-devel] Fwd: display greek accents in LXX and NT
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hi,
>>>>
>>>> I'm not an experd on greek texts, so maybe someone else could better
>>>> explain this, but this is what I know about it.
>>>>
>>>> Nowadays there are 2 groups of text-families that are often used by
>>>> students; the Critical Text (Nestle-Aland) and the Majority Text
>>>> (Byzantine). Most students favor the Critical Text, which is based
>>>> on
>>>> some few very old documents, above the Majority Text, which is
>>>> based on
>>>> around 5000 manucripts, which are of later date.
>>>>
>>>> As Sword modules the following texts are available:
>>>> Byzantine, Textus Receptus (Majority Texts)
>>>> Westcott-Hort (Critical Text)
>>>>
>>>> In which of the 2 groups the Tischendorf text fitts, I don't know,
>>>> but I
>>>> think it's a Critical Text.
>>>>
>>>> But, if you're looking for a Nestle-Aland text, the best you can
>>>> take is
>>>> the Westcott-Hort, which has also the variants of the NA27/UBS4
>>>> text (I
>>>> haven't checked this, but it's what the module-info says)...
>>>>
>>>> In Christ,
>>>>
>>>> Simon
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Will Thimbleby wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi guys,
>>>>>
>>>>> No idea how to answer the second question, can I leave it in your
>>>>> hands.
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheers -Will
>>>>>
>>>>> Begin forwarded message:
>>>>>
>>>>>> From: macsword@macsword.com
>>>>>> Date: Fri Nov 14, 2003 4:57:22 pm Europe/London
>>>>>> To: william@macsword.com
>>>>>> Subject: display greek accents in LXX and NT
>>>>>> Reply-To: zwoerg@gmx.ch
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Dear Mr. Thimbleby
>>>>>>
>>>>>> First, I really like your bible programm, as the only osx-based
>>>>>> programm that can display the Biblia Hebraica with vowel points!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But I still have some problems with the greek texts:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 1) But yet I do not know how to make the greek accents work in the
>>>>>> LXX and NT texts?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 2) How far away from the Nestle-aland (which is commonly used at
>>>>>> my
>>>>>> theological seminary) are the Greek-Versions of Tischendorf or the
>>>>>> Byzantinus-Text? Are they reliable? Is there a Possibility to
>>>>>> purchase the Nestle-Aland-Edition?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I hope you can answer my questions.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yours sincerely
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Christian Walti, Stud. Theol., Zürich
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Christian Walti
>>>>>> zwoerg@gmx.ch
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X; de-de) AppleWebKit/85
>>>>>> (KHTML, like Gecko) Safari/85
>>>>>>
>>>>>
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>>>>
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>>
>
>