[osis-core] [osis-user] Re: semantics of <divineName>?

[Troy A. Griffitts]

Patrick,

> Perhaps presumptuous of me, ;-) , but I assumed that. ;-)

	Thank you helping me start once again with a smile :)

> All very true and correct. And at the same time you are aware that the 
> same God, prior to revealing the *DIVINE PROPER NAME* was referred to by 
> other names. What you are suggesting is that even though we all know 
> that is the case, without any doubt at all, we should make it difficult 
> for users to find all the names for the same God, in order to priviledge 
> a practice in literal translations.

No, I am not suggesting this.  I am suggesting that our tetragrammaton 
tag be used ONLY for the tetragrammaton.  If that means changing the 
name to something like Jim Albright has suggested, I'm fine with that, 
but would rather not.  We all had official debate and finally buyin at 
one point about this need and about the name of the tag-- and I remember 
your hesitation at the time, and also your concession.  You don't get to 
retract!  :)  I think the manual should be fixed to reflect the team 
buyin, and if you still have a heartfelt disagreement, you can bring 
that up at the next OSIS meeting with your suggested changes, and use 
cases that demonstrate the need for modification.


> What I have suggested honors that tradition without putting anyone else, 
> such as scholars or non-literal translations of the Bible at a 
> disadvantage, all while avoiding the likelihood of mistaken use of the 
> element in question.

"such as scholars" :)  I'll leave the exoneration of historic Bible 
translator scholarship for a personal debate.

We are markup and computer science experts, and I can only speak for 
myself, but I only consider myself an amateur Bible scholar.

I know how to capture what the experts have declared in their 
introductions throughout the centuries.  The tetragrammaton markup is 
one of these entities they have historically attempted to annotate.

Using the same tag for other references to God is directly opposed to 
the purpose the scholars declare for their markup (small-caps).  Their 
goal was to mark the tetragrammaton apart from other references to God. 
  Their goal was NOT to mark references to God.

IMPORTANT: Also, I am still fighting for an entry level of core OSIS 
software support which, very basically, is able to define simple 
behavior for a tag, ignoring the plethora of attribute modifications. 
For the most part, this is possible to do and not get 'wrong' results-- 
maybe not the best results, but at least not erroneous results.

Back to your original complaint-- that we are making "it difficult for 
users to find all the names for the same God."  You have a wonderful 
suggestion which will allow users to not only find all the references to 
the only true God, but also will allow users to find all references to 
Mary (specifically, the birth mother of the incarnate God), and Joseph 
(her husband), and Paul (of Tarsus), and to disambiguates all other 
entity references in the Bible.  I believe your suggestion was to use a 
<name> tag attribute unique value in conjunction with a defined database 
of explicit entities.

Maybe <divineName> should inherit <name> and supply the correct 
attribute value for Almighty God.

Yeah, when are we going to finally get this functionality?!

	-Troy.



> 
> Yes, you are *absolutely* correct about our prior discussions on this 
> issue, which I attended and despite having been present, when I was 
> writing the user's manual, made the same mistake, due to fatigue or 
> simple oversight, that I suggest will be made by others.
> 
> BTW, I like you too!
> 
> Sorry I made the mistake in the users manual but I do think it 
> illustrates what is going to happen, however we resolve the "error" in 
> the users manual. Either by adopting the solution that works for 
> everyone or making the users manual consistent with what I now think was 
> a poor decision on our part.
> 
> Hope you are having a great day!
> 
> Patrick
> 
> PS: Happy Father's Day to all the fathers out there!
> 
>> 	Again, back to the issue of OSIS...  Scriptural markup, as it exists 
>> today in typeset Bibles, requires only a few core tags to represent. 
>> One of these core tags is <divineName>, is a very specific anomaly 
>> (detailed in my last email), and needs a very intentional, unambiguous 
>> tag for this purpose.
>>
>> 	It's not just any 'Divine Name', it is very specifically: YHWH in the 
>> Hebrew, purposely modified to something other than YHWH in a translation.
>>
>> 	-Troy.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Patrick Durusau wrote:
>>  
>>
>>> Steve,
>>>
>>> Steven J. DeRose wrote:
>>>
>>>    
>>>
>>>> I believe Troy is right on this. I recall some long discussions about 
>>>> the scope of <divineName>, and I think in the end we did settle on it 
>>>> being used only for the tetragrammaton. At one point we talked about 
>>>> having types on personal names to take care of the rest, but I forget 
>>>> what we decided on that. I kind of like the idea of having a separate 
>>>> tag for non-tetra references to God, but I remember losing that 
>>>> one.... :)
>>>>
>>>>      
>>>>
>>> Several problems:
>>>
>>> 1. Incorrect/inconsistent usage: Note that several years after the 
>>> discussion when I was writing the users manual, I assumed the divineName 
>>> was just that, divineName. Not a shorthand for a single typographical 
>>> tradition for one word in the text. Even if the manual is corrected, how 
>>> many others are going to make that mistake? Noting that it is not 
>>> possible to test for that mistake given the number of languages into 
>>> which the Bible is being translated.
>>>
>>> 2. What else will users think to use with El Shaddai, etc.? <name>? With 
>>> inconsistent x- attributes?
>>>
>>> 3. Loss of ability to search for all divine names including the 
>>> tetragrammaton. With Chris's proposal, slightly modified, we could do 
>>> that as well as preserve the usage that Troy is contending for.
>>>
>>> What if tetragrammaton is the default value for type on divineName? And 
>>> we insert the list of other divine names?
>>>
>>> No loss for Troy's use case and it enables other users to use what is 
>>> the natural element for other divine names and to do so consistently.
>>>
>>> That seems like a net win to me.
>>>
>>> Hope you are having a great day!
>>>
>>> Patrick
>>>
>>>
>>>    
>>>
>>>> S
>>>>      
>>>>
>>>    
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> osis-core mailing list
>> osis-core at bibletechnologieswg.org
>> http://www.bibletechnologieswg.org/mailman/listinfo/osis-core
>>
>>
>>
>>  
>>
>