[osis-core] [osis-user] Re: semantics of <divineName>?

[Patrick Durusau]

Troy,

Troy A. Griffitts wrote:

>Patrick,
>	I'm sorry to disagree again with you.  I like you... Really... :)
>
>  
>
Perhaps presumptuous of me, ;-) , but I assumed that. ;-)

>	I'm not looking for how to make our chosen name apply most logically 
>for someone not familiar with marking Bibles.  If I were, I would 
>whole-heartedly agree with your proposal.
>
>	My desire, years ago when proposing this tag, was specifically to 
>handle the existing anomaly in practically all literal translations of 
>the Bible.  We all talked about the best name for this anomaly, and 
><divineName> was chosen.  Using this tag for any other reference to God, 
>like El-Shaddai, or for any other pseudo-divine entity like Allah, Baal, 
>Asher, or any other usage, would not be for what this tag is designed.
>
>	Now, to address the logic of the currently selected tag name...
>
>	YHWH IS THE DIVINE PROPER NAME THE ONE TRUE GOD HAS CHOSEN FOR HIMSELF. 
>  There is no ambiguity.  Any other reference to God is like calling 
>Patrick Durusau, The Master of All Things "Topic Maps".  Though 
>naturally everyone will truly understand this as a reference to Patrick 
>Durusau, no one would ever consider this your proper name.  Just the 
>same, YHWH is God's proper name.
>
>  
>
All very true and correct. And at the same time you are aware that the 
same God, prior to revealing the *DIVINE PROPER NAME* was referred to by 
other names. What you are suggesting is that even though we all know 
that is the case, without any doubt at all, we should make it difficult 
for users to find all the names for the same God, in order to priviledge 
a practice in literal translations.

What I have suggested honors that tradition without putting anyone else, 
such as scholars or non-literal translations of the Bible at a 
disadvantage, all while avoiding the likelihood of mistaken use of the 
element in question.

Yes, you are *absolutely* correct about our prior discussions on this 
issue, which I attended and despite having been present, when I was 
writing the user's manual, made the same mistake, due to fatigue or 
simple oversight, that I suggest will be made by others.

BTW, I like you too!

Sorry I made the mistake in the users manual but I do think it 
illustrates what is going to happen, however we resolve the "error" in 
the users manual. Either by adopting the solution that works for 
everyone or making the users manual consistent with what I now think was 
a poor decision on our part.

Hope you are having a great day!

Patrick

PS: Happy Father's Day to all the fathers out there!

>	Again, back to the issue of OSIS...  Scriptural markup, as it exists 
>today in typeset Bibles, requires only a few core tags to represent. 
>One of these core tags is <divineName>, is a very specific anomaly 
>(detailed in my last email), and needs a very intentional, unambiguous 
>tag for this purpose.
>
>	It's not just any 'Divine Name', it is very specifically: YHWH in the 
>Hebrew, purposely modified to something other than YHWH in a translation.
>
>	-Troy.
>
>
>
>
>Patrick Durusau wrote:
>  
>
>>Steve,
>>
>>Steven J. DeRose wrote:
>>
>>    
>>
>>>I believe Troy is right on this. I recall some long discussions about 
>>>the scope of <divineName>, and I think in the end we did settle on it 
>>>being used only for the tetragrammaton. At one point we talked about 
>>>having types on personal names to take care of the rest, but I forget 
>>>what we decided on that. I kind of like the idea of having a separate 
>>>tag for non-tetra references to God, but I remember losing that 
>>>one.... :)
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>Several problems:
>>
>>1. Incorrect/inconsistent usage: Note that several years after the 
>>discussion when I was writing the users manual, I assumed the divineName 
>>was just that, divineName. Not a shorthand for a single typographical 
>>tradition for one word in the text. Even if the manual is corrected, how 
>>many others are going to make that mistake? Noting that it is not 
>>possible to test for that mistake given the number of languages into 
>>which the Bible is being translated.
>>
>>2. What else will users think to use with El Shaddai, etc.? <name>? With 
>>inconsistent x- attributes?
>>
>>3. Loss of ability to search for all divine names including the 
>>tetragrammaton. With Chris's proposal, slightly modified, we could do 
>>that as well as preserve the usage that Troy is contending for.
>>
>>What if tetragrammaton is the default value for type on divineName? And 
>>we insert the list of other divine names?
>>
>>No loss for Troy's use case and it enables other users to use what is 
>>the natural element for other divine names and to do so consistently.
>>
>>That seems like a net win to me.
>>
>>Hope you are having a great day!
>>
>>Patrick
>>
>>
>>    
>>
>>>S
>>>      
>>>
>>    
>>
>
>_______________________________________________
>osis-core mailing list
>osis-core at bibletechnologieswg.org
>http://www.bibletechnologieswg.org/mailman/listinfo/osis-core
>
>
>
>  
>

-- 
Patrick Durusau
Patrick at Durusau.net
Chair, V1 - Text Processing: Office and Publishing Systems Interface
Co-Editor, ISO 13250, Topic Maps -- Reference Model
Member, Text Encoding Initiative Board of Directors, 2003-2005

Topic Maps: Human, not artificial, intelligence at work!