[osis-core] OTCite: final call
Patrick Durusau
osis-core@bibletechnologieswg.org
Wed, 22 Oct 2003 11:40:07 -0400
Note suggestion to have stylesheet key off of what is in the osisRef on
quote to determine styling. You do it on who for red-letter, why not do
it on the osisRef?
Troy,
Troy A. Griffitts wrote:
> Steve,
> First, I want to thank you for taking the time to read and logically
> articulate your thoughts on the matter so nicely. I think I see and
> agree with all of your 'fickle waiverings' below :)
>
> Here's one more piece of data to throw in the mix that might bump you to
> one side: consider the possible ambiguity when the text really IS
> intending to quote the old testament: NOT: He is the STONE WHICH you
> BUILDERS REJECTED; but instead: The Prophet says, "HE WAS LED AWAY AS A
> LAMB TO THE SLAUGHTER"
>
Sorry, don't see the ambiguity. Can you say a little more about this?
>
>
> Real example (TOUGH example) data follows (Lockman code explanations
> attached if you can't guess).
>
> <PM>{{41:12}}35 <RA>And Jesus<MG2424> {began} to say<MG3004>, as He
> <RB>taught<MG1321> in the temple<MG2413>, <RS>``How<MG4459> {is it that}
> the scribes<MG1122> say<MG3004> that <N1>the Christ<MG5547> is the
> <RC>son<MG5207> of David<MG1160b>?<RT> {{41:12}}36 <RS>``David<MG1160b>
> himself<MG846> said<MG3004> <N1>in the Holy<MG40> Spirit<MG4151>,<RT>
> <PO><RS>`<RA>T\HE/ L\ORD<MG2962> SAID<MG3004> TO MY/ L\ORD<MG2962>/,<RT>
> <PO><RS>``S\IT<MG2521> AT/ M\Y RIGHT<MG1188> HAND<MG1188>/,<RT>
> <PO><RS>U\NTIL<MG2193>/ I \PUT<MG5087>/ Y\OUR ENEMIES<MG2190>
> BENEATH<MG5270>/ Y\OUR FEET<MG4228>/."'<RT><PE> {{41:12}}37
> <RS>``David<MG1160b> himself<MG846> calls<MG3004> Him `Lord<MG2962>';
> so<MG2532> in what<MG4159> sense<MG4159> is He his son<MG5207>?"<RT> And
> <RA>the large<MG4183> crowd<MG3793> <N1>enjoyed<MG2234> listening<MG191>
> to Him.
<verse osisID="Mark:12:35">And as Jesus taught in the temple, he said,
<q who="Jesus" sID="123"/>How can the scribes say that the Christ is the
son of David? </verse><verse osisID="Mark:12:36">David himself, inspired
by the Holy Spirit, declared, <q type="x-otPassage" who="David">The Lord
said to my Lord, Sit at my right hand, till I put thy enemies under thy
feet.</q></verse><verse osisID="Mark:12:37">David himself calls him
Lord; so how is he his son?"<q eID="123"/> And the great throng heard
him gladly.</verse>
Note that you don't have to use all the red letter stops and starts
since the entire quote from Jesus is in a single quote milestone.
Note that the quote of David could even have an osisRef to point to the
material in the OT.
Actually, rather than using even the type="x-otPassage" your stylesheet
could key off of quotes that have osisRefs to OT passages and display
them differently. That is probably the cleanest solution. That would
work with either exact quotes or paraphrases, since if you think it is a
paraphrase, you must have some idea of the original form of the saying.
The line breaks, we have milestones for that.
The new paragraph break, just use type="x-parabreak" on milestone or
better yet, type="x-formatParaBreak" so people not interested in the
formatting can simply ignore it.
Did I capture the gist of it or did I miss something (quite likely).
Hope you are having a great day!
Patrick
>
> Steven J. DeRose wrote:
>
>> I have mixed feelings on this one. I'm reluctant to add another
>> element, though at least this is one that we had once before.
>>
>> On the other hand, I'm not convinced by arguments re. the use of
>> attributes -- even CSS lets you condition your styling on attributes
>> (conceivably OEB doesn't support that, and I know browsers have some,
>> uh, variation....). I think Troy's point above about misleading
>> rendering from an engine that did ignore the attributes is significant
>> -- but I guess I don't see displaying an (alleged) OT quotation with
>> quotation marks would be so bad.
>>
>> On the other hand, I agree completely with whoever pointed out
>> recently that <q> does not equate to having quotations marks. Besides
>> the block quote case, there is a lot more complexity too: nested
>> quotes use different characters, in patterns that differ substantially
>> from locale to locale. Handling of quotes in a multi-paragraph speech
>> or turn in dialog differs with country, language, and probably even
>> publisher; and I know at least Spanish does weird things when quotes
>> are interrupted by "he said" and such things. In other words, quotes
>> are just not simple. If some apps are willing to sacrifice all those
>> nuances, sacrificing the nuance of formatting OTquotes in a special
>> way rather than with quotation marks doesn't seem like a big deal.
>>
>> On the other hand (as Tevye said, "No! I am running out of hands!"),
>> the argument that OTquote is a natural notion in the cognitive lexicon
>> of translators seems important.
>>
>> So I guess that lands me about dead center re. adding OTquote. I do
>> think that, whatever we do, we need to document it so everybody does
>> it the same way.
>>
>> S
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Codes for NASB
>
>
> CHAPTER ### Before each chapter (### = a number). No CHAPTER 1 in Bible text
> Capi`tulo ### Same as above but in Spanish LBLA
>
> <SH>PSALM ### - Before each Psalm (NASB)
> <SH>SALMO ### - Before each Psalm (LBLA)
>
> <SH>BOOK # - 4 times in Psalms (NASB)
> <SH>LIBRO ??? - 4 times in Pslams (LBLA)
>
> <BN> Book name
> <PN> Line is poetry - after verse number
> <PO> Line is poetry - not after verse number
> <PE> Poetry end and the next line is prose
> <SH> Line is a sub-head and should be italic. Use is optional.
> Subhead is inside these verses: Gen. 35:23, 2 Samuel 12:16,
> 1 Chron. 29:23, Acts 9:20, Acts 10:23
> <SS> Line is a Psalm sub-head and should not be italic.
> It's part of the Bible text.
> <SF> Before Hebrew transliteration in Psalms
> <F###> Footnote superior - optional (### = a number) (Not
> included if <$F is used)
> <$F Footnote text follows
>
>>> Ends footnote text
>>
> <R*> Reference superior - optional (* = a letter)
> <N#> Note superior - optional (# = a number, not used if Footnotes are used)
> <NA> Superior dagger in Psalm subhead
> <NB> Superior dot in Psalm subhead
> <NC> Superior carrot in Psalm subhead
> \ Start small caps.
> / End small caps.
> { Start italic
> } End italic
> {{x:y}} x=book number (1=Gen, 40=Mat). y=chapter
> <PM> New paragraph marker
> <MH#####> Hebrew NAS Exhaustive Concordance Dictionary number (NASB Only)
> <MG#####> Greek NAS Exhaustive Concordance Dictionary number (NASB Only)
>
> `` Open double quote
> " Close double quote
> ` Open single quote
> ' Close single quote
>
> * An * in the text marks verbs that are historical presents in
> the Greek which have been translated with an English past tense
> in order to conform to modern usage.
> -- Long dash
> <HL> Special indent in Acts and Rev.
> <,> Superior comma
> <RS> Red letter starts
> <RT> Red letter ends
>
> Selah does not have a code but can be flush right in books Ps(19) and Hab(35).
> Higgaion Selah Occurs once in Ps(19)
>
>
>
> Used in LBLA only
> <?> Upside down question mark.
> <!> Upside down exclamation mark.
> n~ ~ on preceding letter. (n~)
> N~ ~ on preceding letter. (N~)
> a` Accent mark on preceding letter (a`).
> e` Accent mark on preceding letter (e`).
> i` Accent mark on preceding letter (i`).
> o` Accent mark on preceding letter (o`).
> u` Accent mark on preceding letter (u`).
> u<DI> Duress's.
> U<DI> Duress's.
>
>
> In Reference Files Only
>
>
> +@ Thin Space
--
Patrick Durusau
Director of Research and Development
Society of Biblical Literature
Patrick.Durusau@sbl-site.org
Chair, V1 - Text Processing: Office and Publishing Systems Interface
Co-Editor, ISO 13250, Topic Maps -- Reference Model
Topic Maps: Human, not artificial, intelligence at work!