[osis-core] continuation quotes

[Todd Tillinghast]

All,

I think we need to separate cases where a single _logical_ quote is
interrupted by other text and the rendering mechanism of a continuation
quote mark.

Case 1: The rendering mechanism is just that a rendering mechanism and
does not need to be marked up.

Case 2: First is this common problem that is preventing someone from
encoding something?  Second I am concerned about adding an attribute
that would presumably tie several quotes together without more
consideration.

If I have missed the issue please correct me?

Todd
> -----Original Message-----
> From: osis-core-admin@bibletechnologieswg.org [mailto:osis-core-
> admin@bibletechnologieswg.org] On Behalf Of Chris Little
> Sent: Wednesday, October 15, 2003 4:18 PM
> To: osis-core@bibletechnologieswg.org
> Subject: Re: [osis-core] quotes
> 
> Patrick & Steve,
> 
> Steven J. DeRose wrote:
> 
> > Seems to me there are a couple questions in here....
> >
> > 1) Quotes interrupted by something, like "she said with a smile;
then
> > ocntinuing with a less friendly expression,", etc -- in this case,
there
> > is a good case that the stuff on both sides form a discontiguous but
> > single quotation.
> >
> > In such cases, I think it would be valuable to be able to say that.
I
> > know two ways to do that:
> >
> > a: co-index the quotes before and after (like with "continued-in"
and
> > "continues" attributes, or some such -- a lot like segmentation, but
I
> > agree with Troy that it's not the same thing conceptually..
> >
> > b: Mark the interrupting text as such (semantically, flagging it so
that
> > it doesn't inherit the property "is a quote" (or "is a quote of the
same
> > level", in certain grosser cases), from the quote; then mark the
whole
> > quote as a unit. This seems trickier, especially to process, so I
favor
> > (a).
> 
> I agree completely.  (a) sounds good, (b) sounds icky.  Patrick's
> solution of reviving splitID seems good.  I'm not sure that it should
be
> global again however.
> 
> I'm unclear on the initial example you give since it doesn't seem to
> have any interruption, but I interpret you to mean something akin to:
> "Soon," she said, "I will go to town."
> 
> With splitID added, I would encode that as:
> <p><q splitID="ref">Soon,</q> she said, <q splitID="ref">I will go to
> town.</q></p>
> 
> > The other question involves the relationship of these structures to
> > typography. English, I think, is one of the easier languages. It
does
> > have the silliness (IMHO) about leaving the close quote off of a
> > paragraph when the quote continues into the next paragraph, but
*not*
> > leaving off the balancing re-open quote at the start of the next
para),
> > but that's not too hard to process as a special case in your XSL (I
> > think). But I believe Spanish typography has much more complicated
> > conventions, that let you tell from the punctuation whether you're
in
> > the first part, a medial part, or the last part of a discontiguous
> > quotation -- I don't know the rules, but I'm pretty sure they'd
rquire
> > at least knowing which quoted bits are part of the same conceptual
> > quotation.
> 
> I'll repeat my proposed markup of Troy's example from the NASB
(updated
> to include splitIDs as necessary):
> 
> <p><verse>Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them, <q
> type="spoken" level="1" eID="someRef" who="Peter"/>Rulers and elders
of
> the people, if we are on trial today for a benefit done to a sick man,
> as to how this man has been made well, let it be known to all of you
and
> to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ the
> Nazarene, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead--by this
> name this man stands here before you in good health.</verse>
> <verse>He is the <q type="otPassage" osisRef="Ps.118.22"
> splitID="split">stone which was rejected</q> by you, <q
type="otPassage"
> osisRef="Ps.118.22" splitID="split">the builders</q>, but <q
> type="osPassage" osisRef="Ps.118.22" splitID="split">which became the
> chief corener</q> stone.</verse>
> <verse>And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other
name
> under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be
saved."<q
> sID="someRef"/></verse></p>
> 
> As I mentioned, the most common presentation used for the NASB is to
> print every verse on a new line.  With that presentation, verse
> boundaries that occur in the middle of a quotation cause an extra open
> quotation mark to be generated at the start of the new verse.
> 
> There is however, another presentation format common to printed NASBs
> that uses traditional paragraph formatting.  In this case, extra open
> quotation marks would only be generated if a quotation crosses a
> paragraph boundary.
> 
> The two styles of presentation can be controlled by separate
stylesheets
> without much difficulty. Adding <q/> milestones for continuation
quotes
> would result typographically-motivated markup.  Encoders will place
the
> milestones where they believe quotation marks should appear according
to
> the presentation they envision, without regard to alternative
> presentation forms.  For English texts that add extra open quotation
> marks, encoders will tend to add only start milestones without
matching
> end milestones.  And if they DID actually encode texts correctly, it
> would still void Troy's position that using <q/> must result in the
> generation of a quotation mark character of some type.
> 
> It seems to me that putting different sorts of quotation marks at the
> start & end of initial, medial, and final blocks of quotations
spanning
> paragraphs (or verses, as in NASB) is no more difficult than putting
> open quotes on all blocks & close quotes only on the final, as in
English.
> 
> > This knowledge is also needed to do sensible searching: "Where did
Jesus
> > say X?" can't just be treated as Select element e where e.type = "Q"
and
> > e.text contains X.... because His utterance may have been split
across
> > Qs -- even though the SQL to do the query right will be gross, I
think
> > we should at least have enough markup to make it *possible".
> >
> > You could typeset a red-letter edition fine without this, but search
> > imposes more requirements.
> 
> I assume this addresses the problem for discontinuous quotations
> (problem 1), not continuous quotation that span paragraph boundaries
> (problem 2).  For problem 1, I think the need does exist and Patrick's
> solution of using splitID should solve it.  For problem 2, <q/>
> milestones already solve the issue.
> 
> --Chris
> 
> 
> 
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