[osis-core] quotes

[Troy A. Griffitts]

Steve,
	Thank you for commenting on this.  I agree that we need some mechanism 
to preserve places where continuation quotes might go, as opposed to 
only an algorithm to determine such and dispose of any markings in data 
we're converting.

	The second issue involved the introduction of a new tag for citing a 
source, but not necessarily quoting word for word.  The difference is 
akin to that in research papers.  Sometimes you footnote an exact quote 
from a source; othertimes, you footnote a cite of a source, but used 
your own words.  One uses (") marks, and the other doesn't, and the 
distinction is clear and understood by all.  There is a <cite> tag in 
XHTML which, I feel, does this, as well, though they have 2 usages for 
it, and their examples only show the other usage. From:

http://www.w3.org/TR/2003/WD-xhtml2-20030131/mod-text.html#edef_text_cite

The SPECIFICATION claims:

8.4. The cite element

The cite element contains a citation or a reference to other sources.
____________

I proposed this to deal with OT citations found in the NT.  They are not 
quotes, and most all modern translation do not mark them as such.  They 
set them off with a typography like SMALL CAPS.  It was suggested to use 
<q> possibly with an additional type value for this, but I feel this 
conveys a meaning beyond what is acceptable, and is dangerous, if a 
stylesheet writer chooses to render all 'q' elements as ".



An example of a real case that I'm working on which contains both 
problems is taken from the NASB data from Lockman:


Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them, ``Rulers and 
elders of the people, if we are on trial today for a benefit done to a 
sick man, as to how this man has been made well, let it be known to all 
of you and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ 
the Nazarene, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead--by this 
name this man stands here before you in good health.
``He is the STONE WHICH WAS REJECTED by you, THE BUILDERS, but WHICH 
BECAME THE CHIEF CORNERstone.
``And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name 
under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved."


Note continuation quotes and SMALL CAPS in the data.  I'm looking for a 
solution to transfer this data in OSIS.  It has been suggested to drop 
the continuations quotes, use <q> for the start and end of the quote by 
Peter, and use <q type="otCite"> for the SMALL CAPS.  As stated before, 
I feel using <q> for the OT cites is dangerous, and feel there is a need 
for a non-word-for-word cite tag, as show by the common practice use in 
research papers and the presence of the tag in XHTML.

If the cite tag is not deemed valuable, then is there another more 
special purpose tag I could use (although Kirk cited examples in the OT 
that cited other sources besides Scripture that he might wish to use 
these for, as well)?  We use to have <otPassage> for this purpose, and 
don't recall what it was dropped in favour of.


	-Troy.




Steven J. DeRose wrote:
> Seems to me there are a couple questions in here....
> 
> 1) Quotes interrupted by something, like "she said with a smile; then 
> ocntinuing with a less friendly expression,", etc -- in this case, there 
> is a good case that the stuff on both sides form a discontiguous but 
> single quotation.
> 
> In such cases, I think it would be valuable to be able to say that. I 
> know two ways to do that:
> 
> a: co-index the quotes before and after (like with "continued-in" and 
> "continues" attributes, or some such -- a lot like segmentation, but I 
> agree with Troy that it's not the same thing conceptually..
> 
> b: Mark the interrupting text as such (semantically, flagging it so that 
> it doesn't inherit the property "is a quote" (or "is a quote of the same 
> level", in certain grosser cases), from the quote; then mark the whole 
> quote as a unit. This seems trickier, especially to process, so I favor 
> (a).
> 
> The other question involves the relationship of these structures to 
> typography. English, I think, is one of the easier languages. It does 
> have the silliness (IMHO) about leaving the close quote off of a 
> paragraph when the quote continues into the next paragraph, but *not* 
> leaving off the balancing re-open quote at the start of the next para), 
> but that's not too hard to process as a special case in your XSL (I 
> think). But I believe Spanish typography has much more complicated 
> conventions, that let you tell from the punctuation whether you're in 
> the first part, a medial part, or the last part of a discontiguous 
> quotation -- I don't know the rules, but I'm pretty sure they'd rquire 
> at least knowing which quoted bits are part of the same conceptual 
> quotation.
> 
> This knowledge is also needed to do sensible searching: "Where did Jesus 
> say X?" can't just be treated as Select element e where e.type = "Q" and 
> e.text contains X.... because His utterance may have been split across 
> Qs -- even though the SQL to do the query right will be gross, I think 
> we should at least have enough markup to make it *possible".
> 
> You could typeset a red-letter edition fine without this, but search 
> imposes more requirements.
> 
> So I favor some way of marking up what part of a quote we're in -- I 
> remember adding something for that after huge discussions after the Rome 
> meeting -- but I don't remember what the resolution was. Anybody 
> remember? It's suely in the notes somewhere....
> 
> S
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