[osis-core] proposal: <cite> for OT Quote in NT
Troy A. Griffitts
osis-core@bibletechnologieswg.org
Sat, 11 Oct 2003 10:34:32 -0700
Patrick,
Thank you for the comments. I see your point regarding the changing
history of the use of " marks. My response would be, yes, this is
probably accurate (as I trust you, but might find some examples for my
personal confirmation and use when explaining to others), but, I don't
think that justifies using an archaic practice in a time where it means
something very different.
However, if an older English work used " marks in such way, I would
personally encode that text using <q>. It would be a normal exegetical
practice for the reader to know that in that era, a " wasn't always to
be taken as exact words.
Now, to our current practice. Lockman DID NOT feel it appropriate to
use ". They used small caps, with an explanation of typography to the
reader in the introduction.
Most all modern, literal translations use this, or some other typology
to signify these entities in the text.
I feel my same argument applies from my previous post about paragraph
breaks:
We have an overwhelming number of extraneous elements for various
anomalies for commentaries, dictionaries, and many other things. For
the mainstream literal translation Bibles that I wish to encode, I have
seen only a small, and consistent number of 'encoding' they have done
with typology. If OSIS 1.0's goal is to provide THESE publishers with
mechanisms to encode their Bibles, I feel it would be naturally in line
with our self-mandate, to supply these very few elements as a starting
point.
However, if Chris is correct in that <cite> is used differently in
XHTML, I agree that we should choose a different element name. Having
researched it inadequately, I have found a few sites that both agree and
disagree with Chris' (and their own) conclusion:
http://www.w3.org/TR/2003/WD-xhtml2-20030131/mod-text.html#edef_text_cite
The SPECIFICATION claims:
8.4. The cite element
The cite element contains a citation or a reference to other sources.
Which would suggest my proposed OSIS usage is consistent with the XHTML
specification. However, their examples, and the examples below, only
show it used to mark the SOURCE of the citation, which is unfortunate.
http://www.devguru.com/Technologies/xhtml/quickref/xhtml_cite.html
http://www.zvon.org/xxl/xhtmlReference/Output/Strict/el_cite.html
Further comments welcome,
-Troy.
Patrick Durusau wrote:
> Troy,
>
> I was just checking on the types for quotation and found that we have
> enumerated "block" for its type. Hmmm, bad joss! Any strong feelings on
> that?
>
> The reason I ask is that there appears to be a feeling that quotations
> are always accurate or correct. Whether intentional or not, I suspect a
> large number of quotations in early Church history bear little
> resemblance to what we would consider modern quotation practice.
>
> If I am going to quote you or Chris or Steve, you expect me to quote
> exactly what you said and hopefully with some context.
>
> That perception of literal quoting is a largely modern view. The early
> use of the KJV for example, was as a prompt and although someone might
> say they were quoting the KJV, they were not all that particular about
> using its exact words but used it to inform their own translation from
> the original languages. Apparently (as I only have reports of this
> behavior) they did not consider it odd or amiss to "quote" the KJV in
> this manner. Is it still a quote? Hmmm, I would say so but it is not a
> quote in the sense that I would quote someone on this list.
>
> Perhaps the better action would be to either add an attribute to quote
> or redo type to allow you to specify, if desired, some continum for the
> type of quote you have in mind. Is it literal? (in the modern sense), a
> Church Father's quote (probably a paraphrase), etc.
>
> Suggestions? Comments?
>
> Hope you are having a great day!
>
> Patrick
>
>
>
>
> Troy A. Griffitts wrote:
>
>> Kirk, Thanks for the examples of other occurrences where we might use
>> an element that means to cite without claiming the exactly wording of
>> the original author.
>>
>> Everyone,
>>
>> I would like to suggest that we add, e.g. <cite
>> osisRef="abednahr">text of the citation</cite>
>>
>> This new element would designate to a segment of text: allusion to
>> or excerpt from, and assign credit to, a source, WITHOUT the libel
>> implications of, and asserting the author is claiming, a direct
>> quotation.
>>
>> Other support for this need:
>>
>> When writing a research paper, many sources are cited
>> (traditionally designated with superscripts and endnotes). Of these
>> citations, there are usually 2 distinct types: a) ones where the
>> author quotes the source directly, which he will use QUOTE (") to
>> designate; b) ones the author merely paraphrases and appeals to for
>> authority.
>>
>> Also, note that I have not claimed <q> and <cite> to be mutually
>> exclusive for a segment of text. I can imagine something like this:
>>
>> Todd claims, <cite osisRef="ToddT">SIL is bringing together a USFM
>> sample document that <q>represents complete usage</q> of the
>> specification.</cite>
>>
>> I realize that I am proposing a change while holding a minority
>> share in the pool of people who have expressed preference, to this
>> point. So, discussion and comments are very much welcome.
>>
>> -Troy.
>>
>>
>>
>> Kirk Lowery wrote:
>>
>>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>> Hash: SHA1
>>>
>>> Can I muddy the waters a bit further? :-)
>>>
>>> In the NT there have been identifications of Pauline allusions to and
>>> even direct citation of Greek authors. And then there's the whole
>>> business of Jude and the Assumption of Moses. Finally, in the OT we have
>>> the direct extended citation of "`Abed-nahar" or "Transpotamian"
>>> documents (the Persian Empire's name for their Palestinian province) in
>>> the Aramaic language in Ezra. These documents are embedded in a larger
>>> narrative and so it is critical that markup can distinguish them, even
>>> in translation. And how about when the prophets or Psalms quote the
>>> Torah, especially the Exodus account?
>>>
>>> What do we do about these? Is there at present a generic mechanism
>>> whereby I can arbitrarily identify the source of quotations?
>>>
>>> Blessings,
>>>
>>> Kirk
>>> - --
>>> Kirk E. Lowery, Ph.D.
>>> Director, Westminster Hebrew Institute
>>> Adjunct Professor of Old Testament
>>> Westminster Theological Seminary, Philadelphia
>>>
>>> Theorie ist, wenn man alles weiss und nichts klappt.
>>> Praxis ist, wenn alles klappt und keiner weiss warum.
>>> Bei uns sind Theorie und Praxis vereint:
>>> nichts klappt und keiner weiss warum!
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>>>
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>>
>>
>>
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