[osis-core] quotes
Patrick Durusau
osis-core@bibletechnologieswg.org
Mon, 21 Oct 2002 17:13:18 -0400
Troy,
No reply yet but did not want you to think I was ignoring the issue!
Covered up with all sorts of stuff. Printing it out so I can read it
during dinner.
Will try to have a response or at least some semblance of a reply by
NOON (East Coast time) tomorrow.
Sorry 'bout that!
Patrick
Troy A. Griffitts wrote:
>> Question: Are there known cases in printed versions where the same
>> translation is rendered differently?
>
>
> Good question. It would definitely tell us if one publisher felt it
> was their right to add continuation quotes to a book.
>
> I still find it hard to believe if a Tozer or Lewis submitted a work
> to be printed, that the publisher would find it their duty to add
> continuation quotes to the work. An editor maybe, and probably
> approved by the author.
>
>
>> After encoding a few things, I am of the mind to recommend using
>> milestones
>> for ALL quotes other than short/simple quotes. As a result I would be
>> infavor of adding back in a special milestone specifically for quotes.
>> Thoughts?
>
>
> I'm pretty much with you on this one. I still like our proposal to
> allow a few legal empty tags to act as milestones. Last incarnation:
>
> <q mStart="uniqueID1" />stuff<q mEnd="uniqueID1" />
>
> <q> seems to be an easy exception to the objection of special parsing
> for these. A dumb XSL could merely replace all <q> tags with " (or
> consider the 'level' attribute to determine a more proper character).
>
> I don't know where we stand regarding the ability to augment the
> specification in our current chronology.
>
> Any ideas, gents?
>
> -Troy.
>
>
>
>>
>> A little more below.
>>
>> Todd
>>
>>> I'm impressed with your encoding, BUT....
>>>
>>> For this example, I would still rather use milestones. And for the
>>> code
>>> I'm writing that tries to turn "'` into <q> tags, I'm tempted to ALWAYS
>>> use milestones, so as not to worry about crossing other boundaries.
>>>
>>> Regarding my real immediate question though... I explicitly stated
>>> in my
>>> first email (because I KNEW YOU SPECIFICALLY would recommend
>>> segmentation :) ) that I didn't think segmentation was a good
>>> mechanism,
>>> and I tried to state a very easily confused concept that SHOULD BE
>>> DRASTICALLY kept separate-- in my mind, at least. To quote:
>>>
>>>
>>> >>1) Segmentation should not be the suggested mechanism do this.
>>> >>Segmentation is for CODING PROBLEMS of hierarchy and constitute ONE
>>> >>LOGICAL element, when reconstructed programmatically. This is a very
>>> >>different thing than actual content segmentation symbols intended for
>>> >>the reader.
>>
>>
>>
>> I agree that the splitID should NOT be encoded for this purpose of
>> identifiying paragraphs. Only because it is consistently there for
>> other
>> reasons do I suggest it be used to identify quotes that are split across
>> multiple paragraphs.
>>
>>
>>>
>>> concept 1) OSIS <q> with attribute: splitID. This has absolutely NO
>>> bearing on presentation/text meaning, and is ONLY used because of XML
>>> limitations on hierarchy. We can attach NO OTHER MEANING TO THIS,
>>> in my
>>> opinion-- and this is very important.
>>>
>>> It's the same problem some of the SIL guys had on first glance with
>>> another scenario: "Hello", said Troy, "how are you?" They wanted to
>>> know if this quote should be the same quote and use splitID. THE
>>> DEFINITIVE ANSWER is NO. splitID segmentation explicates NO meaning to
>>> the text; it is only a coding mechanism (and possibly temporary, at
>>> that) to alleviate XML hierarchy problems.
>>>
>>> concept 2) a quote in the English language can be segmented.
>>>
>>>
>>> Other than having the semantic english word 'segmented' in common,
>>> these
>>> 2 concepts should have NOTHING to do with each other-- and are easily
>>> confused, and easily bled together.
>>>
>>>
>>> Now, back to your email. As stated, for the most part, I like your
>>> encoding of the Jeremiah text, except that I will probably not mix
>>> hierarchy sub-elements when I'm working on generating these tags
>>> programmatically. e.g. I won't have <verse><p></p></verse> in one
>>> place, and have <p><verse></verse></p> in another. My code won't be
>>> smart enough to figure out what's better.
>>>
>>> BUT and FINALLY, I still think it's necessary to give an AUTHOR the
>>> ability of stating that he wants to use quote continuation mark at a
>>> certain location.
>>>
>>> There is a fine line here, but I tend to think this is an _authorative_
>>> style, and not just a _publishing_ style.
>>>
>>> Just my opinion. I'm interested to hear your rebuttals and others'
>>> thoughts.
>>>
>>>
>>> -Troy.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Todd Tillinghast wrote:
>>>
>>>> Troy,
>>>>
>>>> I think that what is encoded should strictly be where the quote starts
>>>> and ends. This can be accomplished either with a milestone or with a
>>>> <q> element. If a <q> element is used then either the <q> element OR
>>>> the other overlapping elements would be segmented. The fact that a
>>>> quote mark is placed at the first of a paragraph that continues a
>>>> quote
>>>> from a prior paragraph is a presentation issue and different styles
>>>> will
>>>> handle this differently.
>>>>
>>>> I picked out Bible.TEV:Matt.13 for test encoding for the reasons you
>>>> have run into.
>>>>
>>>> If you go with segmentation, I personally think that it is more
>>>> natural
>>>> to segment the <q> element rather than the <p> and possibly other
>>>> elements.
>>>>
>>>> The benefit of segmenting the <q> element is that the presence of a
>>>> "splitID" attribute indicates that the quote has been split, which
>>>> makes
>>>> the job of rendering a quote mark at the start of a paragraph that
>>>> continues a quote fairly simple.
>>>>
>>>> This is how I would encode it:
>>>> <div>
>>>> <p>
>>>> <verse osisID="Jer.2.1">Moreover the word of the LORD
>>>> came to me, saying,</verse>
>>>> <verse osisID="Jer.2.2">
>>>> <q splitID="Q-Jer.2.2-A">Go and cry in the
>>>> hearing of Jerusalem, saying, <q splitID="Q-Jer.2.2-B">Thus says the
>>>> LORD:<q splitID="Q-Jer.2.2-C">I remember you, The kindness of your
>>>> youth, The love of your betrothal, When you went after Me in the
>>>> wilderness, In a land not sown. </q>
>>>> </q>
>>>> </q>
>>>> </verse>
>>>> <verse osisID="Jer.2.3">
>>>> <q splitID="Q-Jer.2.2-A">
>>>> <q splitID="Q-Jer.2.2-B">
>>>> <q splitID="Q-Jer.2.2-C">Israel
>>>> [was] holiness to the LORD, The firstfruits of His increase. All that
>>>> devour him will offend; Disaster will come upon them,</q>
>>>> <!--True Close Q-Jer.2.2-C
>>>> -->says the LORD.</q>
>>>> <!-- True Close Q-Jer.2.2-B -->
>>>> </q>
>>>> <!--NO True Close Q-Jer.2.2-A -->
>>>> </verse>
>>>> </p>
>>>> <p>
>>>> <q splitID="Q-Jer.2.2-A">
>>>> <verse osisID="Jer.2.4">Hear the word of the
>>>> LORD, O house of Jacob and all the families of the house of
>>>> Israel.</verse>
>>>> <verse osisID="Jer.2.5">Thus says the LORD:<q
>>>> splitID="Q-Jer.2.5-A">What injustice have your fathers found in Me,
>>>> That
>>>> they have gone far from Me, Have followed idols, And have become
>>>> idolaters?</q>
>>>> </verse>
>>>> <q splitID="Q-Jer.2.5-A">
>>>> <verse osisID="Jer.2.6">Neither did they
>>>> say,<q>
>>>> <!-- No need for a split
>>>> here --> Where [is] the LORD, Who brought us up out of the land of
>>>> Egypt, Who led us through the wilderness, Through a land of deserts
>>>> and
>>>> pits, Through a land of drought and the shadow of death, Through a
>>>> land
>>>> that no one crossed And where no one dwelt?</q>
>>>> </verse>
>>>> <verse osisID="Jer.2.7">I brought you
>>>> into a bountiful country, To eat its fruit and its goodness. But when
>>>> you entered, you defiled My land And made My heritage an
>>>> abomination.</verse>
>>>> <verse osisID="Jer.2.8">The priests did
>>>> not say,<q>Where [is] the LORD?</q>And those who handle the law did
>>>> not
>>>> know Me; The rulers also transgressed against Me; The prophets
>>>> prophesied by Baal, And walked after [things that] do not
>>>> profit.</verse>
>>>> <verse osisID="Jer.2.9">
>>>> <!--****conflict here**** no
>>>> ending "-->
>>>> </verse>
>>>> </q>
>>>> <!-- True Close of Q-Jer.2.5-A -->
>>>> </q>
>>>> <!-- True Close of Q-Jer.2.2-A -->
>>>> </p>
>>>> </div>
>>>> Not sure if I got the part near Jer.2.9 right since that is where you
>>>> left off and I don't have a printed NKJV. Hopefully you get the idea.
>>>>
>>>> Also note that I started the split quote "Q-Jer.2.5-A" inside the
>>>> <verse> element Jer.2.5 but then had the continuation of the <q>
>>>> element
>>>> "Q-Jer.2.5-A" contain the <verse> elements for Jer.2.6, Jer.2.7,
>>>> Jer.2.8
>>>> and Jer.2.9. This leaves "Q-Jer.2.5-A" split into only two pieces but
>>>> also has it contained within and containing <verse> elements that are
>>>> parallel.
>>>>
>>>> The placement of the continuation quote mark when rendering would be
>>>> identified by a <q> that is split prior to the first "text" in the
>>>> paragraph.
>>>>
>>>> The other option is to use milestones. I am not really opposed to
>>>> using
>>>> milestones for quotes, especially for cases like this. But I don't
>>>> think there is any need for <q type="continuation"> since there will
>>>> MUST already be the information provided by "splitID" attributes.
>>>>
>>>> What do you think?
>>>>
>>>> Todd
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Hey guys. Got some quote questions for you all. Again, I go to
>>>>> extremely difficult problems in the minor prophets. Please see after
>>>>> example for my immediate question.
>>>>>
>>>>> Here's an excerpt from the NKJV, Jer 2:1-. I've tried to 'codify'
>>>>> the
>>>>> quotes and indentation to help see the hierarchy:
>>>>>
>>>>> _________________________
>>>>>
>>>>> 1. Moreover the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 2.
>>>>> "
>>>>> Go and cry in the hearing of Jerusalem, saying,
>>>>> '
>>>>> Thus says the LORD:
>>>>> "
>>>>> I remember you, The kindness of your youth, The love of your
>>>>> betrothal, When you went after Me in the wilderness, In a
>>>>> land not sown. 3. Israel [was] holiness to the LORD, The
>>>>> firstfruits of His increase. All that devour him will
>>>>> offend; Disaster will come upon them,
>>>>> "
>>>>> says the LORD.
>>>>> '
>>>>> "
>>>>> 4. Hear the word of the LORD, O house of Jacob and all the
>>>>> families of the house of Israel. 5. Thus says the LORD:
>>>>> "
>>>>> What injustice have your fathers found in Me, That they have gone
>>>>> far from Me, Have followed idols, And have become idolaters?
>>>>> 6. Neither did they say,
>>>>> '
>>>>> Where [is] the LORD, Who brought us up out of the land of Egypt,
>>>>> Who led us through the wilderness, Through a land of deserts
>>>>> and pits, Through a land of drought and the shadow of death,
>>>>> Through a land that no one crossed And where no one dwelt?
>>>>> '
>>>>> 7. I brought you into a bountiful country, To eat its fruit
>>>>> and its goodness. But when you entered, you defiled My land
>>>>> And made My heritage an abomination. 8. The priests did not say,
>>>>> '
>>>>> Where [is] the LORD?
>>>>> '
>>>>> And those who handle the law did not know Me; The rulers
>>>>> also transgressed against Me; The prophets prophesied
>>>>> by Baal, And walked after [things that] do not profit.
>>>>> 9.
>>>>> <****conflict here**** no ending ">
>>>>> "
>>>>> Therefore I will yet bring charges against you,
>>>>> "
>>>>> says the LORD,...
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _________________________
>>>>>
>>>>> Verse 9 has a 'continuation quote' that started in verse 5. I think
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> the
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> NKJV does this when a new paragraph begins and the quote spans the
>>>>> paragraph, eg.
>>>>>
>>>>> This is a long quote, "Hello this is my first paragraph.
>>>>> "This is my second paragraph."
>>>>>
>>>>> Here is another example from John 7:21:
>>>>> _________________________
>>>>>
>>>>> 21. Jesus answered and said to them, "I did one work, and you all
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> marvel.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> 22. "Moses therefore gave you circumcision (not that it is from
>>>>> Moses,
>>>>> but from the fathers), and you circumcise a man on the Sabbath.
>>>>> 23. "If a man receives circumcision on the Sabbath, so that the
>>>>> law of
>>>>> Moses should not be broken, are you angry with Me because I made a
>>>>> man
>>>>> completely well on the Sabbath?
>>>>> 24. "Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous
>>>>> judgment."
>>>>> _________________________
>>>>>
>>>>> the quote starts in 21, and continues thru 24. There are
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 'continuation
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> quotes' starting verses 22, 23, and 24.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> HOW IN THE WORLD SHOULD WE MARK THESE UP?
>>>>>
>>>>> My thoughts:
>>>>>
>>>>> 1) Segmentation should not be the suggested mechanism do this.
>>>>> Segmentation is for CODING PROBLEMS of hierarchy and constitute ONE
>>>>> LOGICAL element, when reconstructed programmatically. This is a very
>>>>> different thing that actual content segmentation symbols intended for
>>>>> the reader.
>>>>>
>>>>> 2) suggestion: <q type="continuation" />
>>>>>
>>>>> 3) alternate suggestion: no markup at all. Just remove the
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> continuation
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> quotes and let the renderer decide that it needs to insert the
>>>>> appropriate "'` or whatever/whenever the renderer feels the need to
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> show
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> continuation quotes.
>>>>>
>>>>> I think enabling authors to mark these up in text is best, so I
>>>>> prefer
>>>>> something like the suggestion in 2.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thoughts?
>>>>> -Troy.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>
--
Patrick Durusau
Director of Research and Development
Society of Biblical Literature
pdurusau@emory.edu