[osis-core] quotes
Troy A. Griffitts
osis-core@bibletechnologieswg.org
Fri, 18 Oct 2002 17:01:10 -0700
I'm impressed with your encoding, BUT....
For this example, I would still rather use milestones. And for the code
I'm writing that tries to turn "'` into <q> tags, I'm tempted to ALWAYS
use milestones, so as not to worry about crossing other boundaries.
Regarding my real immediate question though... I explicitly stated in my
first email (because I KNEW YOU SPECIFICALLY would recommend
segmentation :) ) that I didn't think segmentation was a good mechanism,
and I tried to state a very easily confused concept that SHOULD BE
DRASTICALLY kept separate-- in my mind, at least. To quote:
>>1) Segmentation should not be the suggested mechanism do this.
>>Segmentation is for CODING PROBLEMS of hierarchy and constitute ONE
>>LOGICAL element, when reconstructed programmatically. This is a very
>>different thing than actual content segmentation symbols intended for
>>the reader.
concept 1) OSIS <q> with attribute: splitID. This has absolutely NO
bearing on presentation/text meaning, and is ONLY used because of XML
limitations on hierarchy. We can attach NO OTHER MEANING TO THIS, in my
opinion-- and this is very important.
It's the same problem some of the SIL guys had on first glance with
another scenario: "Hello", said Troy, "how are you?" They wanted to
know if this quote should be the same quote and use splitID. THE
DEFINITIVE ANSWER is NO. splitID segmentation explicates NO meaning to
the text; it is only a coding mechanism (and possibly temporary, at
that) to alleviate XML hierarchy problems.
concept 2) a quote in the English language can be segmented.
Other than having the semantic english word 'segmented' in common, these
2 concepts should have NOTHING to do with each other-- and are easily
confused, and easily bled together.
Now, back to your email. As stated, for the most part, I like your
encoding of the Jeremiah text, except that I will probably not mix
hierarchy sub-elements when I'm working on generating these tags
programmatically. e.g. I won't have <verse><p></p></verse> in one
place, and have <p><verse></verse></p> in another. My code won't be
smart enough to figure out what's better.
BUT and FINALLY, I still think it's necessary to give an AUTHOR the
ability of stating that he wants to use quote continuation mark at a
certain location.
There is a fine line here, but I tend to think this is an _authorative_
style, and not just a _publishing_ style.
Just my opinion. I'm interested to hear your rebuttals and others'
thoughts.
-Troy.
Todd Tillinghast wrote:
> Troy,
>
> I think that what is encoded should strictly be where the quote starts
> and ends. This can be accomplished either with a milestone or with a
> <q> element. If a <q> element is used then either the <q> element OR
> the other overlapping elements would be segmented. The fact that a
> quote mark is placed at the first of a paragraph that continues a quote
> from a prior paragraph is a presentation issue and different styles will
> handle this differently.
>
> I picked out Bible.TEV:Matt.13 for test encoding for the reasons you
> have run into.
>
> If you go with segmentation, I personally think that it is more natural
> to segment the <q> element rather than the <p> and possibly other
> elements.
>
> The benefit of segmenting the <q> element is that the presence of a
> "splitID" attribute indicates that the quote has been split, which makes
> the job of rendering a quote mark at the start of a paragraph that
> continues a quote fairly simple.
>
> This is how I would encode it:
> <div>
> <p>
> <verse osisID="Jer.2.1">Moreover the word of the LORD
> came to me, saying,</verse>
> <verse osisID="Jer.2.2">
> <q splitID="Q-Jer.2.2-A">Go and cry in the
> hearing of Jerusalem, saying, <q splitID="Q-Jer.2.2-B">Thus says the
> LORD:<q splitID="Q-Jer.2.2-C">I remember you, The kindness of your
> youth, The love of your betrothal, When you went after Me in the
> wilderness, In a land not sown. </q>
> </q>
> </q>
> </verse>
> <verse osisID="Jer.2.3">
> <q splitID="Q-Jer.2.2-A">
> <q splitID="Q-Jer.2.2-B">
> <q splitID="Q-Jer.2.2-C">Israel
> [was] holiness to the LORD, The firstfruits of His increase. All that
> devour him will offend; Disaster will come upon them,</q>
> <!--True Close Q-Jer.2.2-C
> -->says the LORD.</q>
> <!-- True Close Q-Jer.2.2-B -->
> </q>
> <!--NO True Close Q-Jer.2.2-A -->
> </verse>
> </p>
> <p>
> <q splitID="Q-Jer.2.2-A">
> <verse osisID="Jer.2.4">Hear the word of the
> LORD, O house of Jacob and all the families of the house of
> Israel.</verse>
> <verse osisID="Jer.2.5">Thus says the LORD:<q
> splitID="Q-Jer.2.5-A">What injustice have your fathers found in Me, That
> they have gone far from Me, Have followed idols, And have become
> idolaters?</q>
> </verse>
> <q splitID="Q-Jer.2.5-A">
> <verse osisID="Jer.2.6">Neither did they
> say,<q>
> <!-- No need for a split
> here --> Where [is] the LORD, Who brought us up out of the land of
> Egypt, Who led us through the wilderness, Through a land of deserts and
> pits, Through a land of drought and the shadow of death, Through a land
> that no one crossed And where no one dwelt?</q>
> </verse>
> <verse osisID="Jer.2.7">I brought you
> into a bountiful country, To eat its fruit and its goodness. But when
> you entered, you defiled My land And made My heritage an
> abomination.</verse>
> <verse osisID="Jer.2.8">The priests did
> not say,<q>Where [is] the LORD?</q>And those who handle the law did not
> know Me; The rulers also transgressed against Me; The prophets
> prophesied by Baal, And walked after [things that] do not
> profit.</verse>
> <verse osisID="Jer.2.9">
> <!--****conflict here**** no
> ending "-->
> </verse>
> </q>
> <!-- True Close of Q-Jer.2.5-A -->
> </q>
> <!-- True Close of Q-Jer.2.2-A -->
> </p>
> </div>
> Not sure if I got the part near Jer.2.9 right since that is where you
> left off and I don't have a printed NKJV. Hopefully you get the idea.
>
> Also note that I started the split quote "Q-Jer.2.5-A" inside the
> <verse> element Jer.2.5 but then had the continuation of the <q> element
> "Q-Jer.2.5-A" contain the <verse> elements for Jer.2.6, Jer.2.7, Jer.2.8
> and Jer.2.9. This leaves "Q-Jer.2.5-A" split into only two pieces but
> also has it contained within and containing <verse> elements that are
> parallel.
>
> The placement of the continuation quote mark when rendering would be
> identified by a <q> that is split prior to the first "text" in the
> paragraph.
>
> The other option is to use milestones. I am not really opposed to using
> milestones for quotes, especially for cases like this. But I don't
> think there is any need for <q type="continuation"> since there will
> MUST already be the information provided by "splitID" attributes.
>
> What do you think?
>
> Todd
>
>
>
>>Hey guys. Got some quote questions for you all. Again, I go to
>>extremely difficult problems in the minor prophets. Please see after
>>example for my immediate question.
>>
>>Here's an excerpt from the NKJV, Jer 2:1-. I've tried to 'codify' the
>>quotes and indentation to help see the hierarchy:
>>
>>_________________________
>>
>>1. Moreover the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 2.
>>"
>> Go and cry in the hearing of Jerusalem, saying,
>> '
>> Thus says the LORD:
>> "
>> I remember you, The kindness of your youth, The love of your
>> betrothal, When you went after Me in the wilderness, In a
>> land not sown. 3. Israel [was] holiness to the LORD, The
>> firstfruits of His increase. All that devour him will
>> offend; Disaster will come upon them,
>> "
>> says the LORD.
>> '
>>"
>>4. Hear the word of the LORD, O house of Jacob and all the
>>families of the house of Israel. 5. Thus says the LORD:
>>"
>> What injustice have your fathers found in Me, That they have gone
>> far from Me, Have followed idols, And have become idolaters?
>> 6. Neither did they say,
>> '
>> Where [is] the LORD, Who brought us up out of the land of Egypt,
>> Who led us through the wilderness, Through a land of deserts
>> and pits, Through a land of drought and the shadow of death,
>> Through a land that no one crossed And where no one dwelt?
>> '
>> 7. I brought you into a bountiful country, To eat its fruit
>> and its goodness. But when you entered, you defiled My land
>> And made My heritage an abomination. 8. The priests did not say,
>> '
>> Where [is] the LORD?
>> '
>> And those who handle the law did not know Me; The rulers
>> also transgressed against Me; The prophets prophesied
>> by Baal, And walked after [things that] do not profit.
>> 9.
>><****conflict here**** no ending ">
>>"
>> Therefore I will yet bring charges against you,
>>"
>>says the LORD,...
>>
>>
>>_________________________
>>
>>Verse 9 has a 'continuation quote' that started in verse 5. I think
>
> the
>
>>NKJV does this when a new paragraph begins and the quote spans the
>>paragraph, eg.
>>
>>This is a long quote, "Hello this is my first paragraph.
>>"This is my second paragraph."
>>
>>Here is another example from John 7:21:
>>_________________________
>>
>>21. Jesus answered and said to them, "I did one work, and you all
>
> marvel.
>
>>22. "Moses therefore gave you circumcision (not that it is from Moses,
>>but from the fathers), and you circumcise a man on the Sabbath.
>>23. "If a man receives circumcision on the Sabbath, so that the law of
>>Moses should not be broken, are you angry with Me because I made a man
>>completely well on the Sabbath?
>>24. "Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous
>>judgment."
>>_________________________
>>
>>the quote starts in 21, and continues thru 24. There are
>
> 'continuation
>
>>quotes' starting verses 22, 23, and 24.
>>
>>
>>HOW IN THE WORLD SHOULD WE MARK THESE UP?
>>
>>My thoughts:
>>
>>1) Segmentation should not be the suggested mechanism do this.
>>Segmentation is for CODING PROBLEMS of hierarchy and constitute ONE
>>LOGICAL element, when reconstructed programmatically. This is a very
>>different thing that actual content segmentation symbols intended for
>>the reader.
>>
>>2) suggestion: <q type="continuation" />
>>
>>3) alternate suggestion: no markup at all. Just remove the
>
> continuation
>
>>quotes and let the renderer decide that it needs to insert the
>>appropriate "'` or whatever/whenever the renderer feels the need to
>
> show
>
>>continuation quotes.
>>
>>I think enabling authors to mark these up in text is best, so I prefer
>>something like the suggestion in 2.
>>
>>Thoughts?
>> -Troy.
>>
>>
>>
>
>