[osis-core] Isn't an <identifier type="OSIS"> element required within a <work> element that is used in osisRefWork or osisIDWork

[Todd Tillinghast]

Simply stated here is test case of what I think needs to work in a
reliable fashion:
<osisText osisIDWork="x" osisRefWork="y">
   <header>
      <work osisWork="x">
         ... some element that is always there that says
"x=Bible.MyEncoding" ...
      </work>
      <work osisWork="y">
         ... some element that is always there that says "y=Bible.KJV"
...
      </work>   
      <work osisWork="z">
         ... some element that is always there that says "z=Bible.XYZ"
...
      </work>   
   </header>
   <div>
      <div type="book" osisID="Ps">
          <div type="chapter" osisID="Ps.1">
              <p> 
                  <verse osisID="Ps.1.1 x:Ps.1.1 y:Ps.1.1 z:Ps.2.a
z:Ps.1.2.b">....</verse>
                  <reference osisRef="Ps.42.1"/>
                  <reference osisRef="x:Ps.1.5"/>
                  <reference osisRef="z:Ps.1.1"/>
              </p>
          </div>
      </div>
   </div>
</osisText>

>From the osisID derive the following:
Ps.1.1       = Bible.MyEncoding:Ps.1.1
x:Ps.1.1     = Bible.MyEncoding:Ps.1.1
y:Ps.1.1     = Bible.KJV:Ps.1.1
z:Ps.2.a     = Bible.XYZ:Ps.2.a
z:Ps.1.2.b   = Bible.XYZ:Ps.2.b

>From the osisRef derive the following:
Ps.42.1      = Bible.KJV:Ps.42.1
x:Ps.1.5     = Bible.MyEncoding:Ps.42.1
z:Ps.1.1     = Bible.XYZ:Ps.1.1

I thought that we had established that for the value of the attribute
osisWork of a <work> element to be used in conjunction with an osisID or
osisRef that it had to define a child element <identifier> with
type="OSIS.  

As far a there being a distinction between a reference system and a work
I thought that we had agreed that there was none (and that there can be
"abstract" works if desired).

I like the consistency of ALWAYS having an <identifier type="OSIS">,
over sometimes <referenceSystem> and other times <identifier
type="OSIS">.  Also if we allow both then which one supersedes if two
values are present.  (It is also possible to have two child elements
<identifier type="OSIS">, but should be considered incorrect.)

Are we coming closer to the same page?

Todd

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-osis-core@bibletechnologieswg.org [mailto:owner-osis-
> core@bibletechnologieswg.org] On Behalf Of Troy A. Griffitts
> Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2002 6:48 PM
> To: osis-core@bibletechnologieswg.org
> Subject: Re: [osis-core] Isn't an <identifier type="OSIS"> element
> required within a <work> element that is used in osisRefWork or
osisIDWork
> 
> No, I don't agree, but I don't think we are tracking with eachother.
> I'm probably not understanding your point, as it doesn't seem you are
> mine.  I think we need a phone call :)
> 
> But one more try:
> 
> What do you see as the difference between refSystem value and your
> proposed identifier?
> 
> I think we want the exact same thing-- I was just under the impression
> refSystem pointed to another doc's <identifier type="OSIS">
> 
> 
> I see the difference as:
> 
> the required <identifier type="OSIS"> is ONLY required in the (and
> should only be in 1) work element that describes THIS document.
> 
> The difference is:
> 
>   _self identifying_, which NEEDS the <identifier type="OSIS">
> 
> identifying another OSIS document, which *might* use an <identifier
> type="OSIS">
> 
> and declaring that you use a reference system which DOES require an
> OSIS-identifier string, but it is the value of
> <refSystem>OSIS-identifier</refSystem>.
> 
> e.g.
> 
> I could say that I'm a commentary referring to a work call the New
> Living Bible, and I'm using the reference system of the KJV.
> 
> you could provide an <identifier type="OSIS">Bible.NLB</identifier> so
> we were pretter sure, at least to the work (maybe not edition or
> whatever), but you would have a <refSystem>Bible.KJV</refSystem> to
say
> that your osisRef was using the KJV versification.
> 
> <work osisWork="NLT">
> 	<identifier type="OSIS">Bible.NLT</identifier>
> 	<refSystem>Bible.KJV</refSystem>
> </work>
> 
> 
> then you could have:
> 
> See <reference osisRef="NLT:John.1.1">John 1:1</reference> in the New
> Living Translation.
> 
> Call me if you want to discuss further, as I may be wrong and I'm sure
> we could have convinced eachother much quicker than it has taken us to
> write these emails.
> 
> 	-Troy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Todd Tillinghast wrote:
> > Troy,
> >
> >
> >>I was working under the assumption that the <refSystem> element
> >>contained an identifier _pointing to_ a document that must have an
> >><identifier type="OSIS"> in its *this* work.
> >>
> >
> > My understanding is that the each <work> element with a child
> > <identifier type="OSIS"> identifies a work (either concrete or
> > abstract).  In the case where the osisIDWork attribute in <osisText>
> > references a <work> element then that work element decribes the
current
> > <osisText> element.  In the remaining cases <work> elements identify
> > other <osisText> instances with matching <identifier type="OSIS">
values
> > in the <work> element referenced by the "osisIDWork" attribute.
> >
> > When we were trying to nail the <work> related issues I was in favor
of
> > removing <referenceSystem> as a child element of <work> because its
> > meaning could be mistakenly used to determine the "fully qualified
name"
> > of an osisID or osisRef in addition to or instead of the value of
> > <identifier type="OSIS">.
> >
> > However, Patrick suggested that having a <referenceSystem> element
would
> > not be harmful and would have no different impact on deriving the
"fully
> > qualified name" than any other child element of <work>.  So I left
it
> > alone resting in the comfort that there would always be an
<identifier
> > type="OSIS"> for every <work> that was used in <osisText> attributes
> > "osisIDWork" and "osisRefWork" and proceeding the ":" in osisID and
> > osisRef values.
> >
> > I think it is important to strictly follow this rule so that we can
> > reliably "resolve" the "fully qualified name" of osisIDs and
osisRefs.
> >
> > Do you agree?
> >
> > Todd
> >
> >
> >
> >>-----Original Message-----
> >>From: owner-osis-core@bibletechnologieswg.org [mailto:owner-osis-
> >>core@bibletechnologieswg.org] On Behalf Of Troy A. Griffitts
> >>Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2002 11:43 AM
> >>To: osis-core@bibletechnologieswg.org
> >>Subject: Re: [osis-core] Isn't an <identifier type="OSIS"> element
> >>required within a <work> element that is used in osisRefWork or
> >
> > osisIDWork
> >
> >>I guess I hadn't thought much about the necessity of <identifier
> >>type="OSIS"> in any work other than *this* (C++ usage :) )
> >>
> >>I was working under the assumption that the <refSystem> element
> >>contained an identifier _pointing to_ a document that must have an
> >><identifier type="OSIS"> in its *this* work.
> >>
> >>Does this make sense?  Do you still disagree?  If so, what do you
see
> >
> > as
> >
> >>the difference between the refSystem value and your proposed
> >
> > identifier
> >
> >>value?
> >>
> >>	-Troy.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>Todd Tillinghast wrote:
> >>
> >>>Troy,
> >>>
> >>>The tutorial is a beautiful thing and I think will really help
those
> >>>trying to understand the basics!
> >>>
> >>>My understanding is that in order to use the value in a "osisWork"
> >>>attribute in a <work> element as the value of "osisRefWork" or
> >>>"osisIDWork" in <osisText> that an <identifier> element with
> >>
> > type="OSIS"
> >
> >>>had to be present within the corresponding <work> element.
> >>>
> >>>Is this something you don't agree with or was this just an
> >>
> > oversight?
> >
> >>>>From your tutorial:
> >>>
> >>>In "The Header"
> >>><header>
> >>>   <work osisWork="KJV">
> >>>       <title>King James Version of 1611</title>
> >>>       <language>en</language>
> >>>       <identifier type="OSIS">KJV.TutorEncoding</identifier>
> >>>       <refSystem>Bible.KJV</refSystem>
> >>>    </work>
> >>>    <work osisWork="defaultReferenceScheme">
> >>>        <refSystem>Bible.KJV</refSystem>
> >>>    </work>
> >>></header>
> >>>
> >>>Should include an <identifier> element in the
> >>><work osisWork="defaultReferenceSystem"> element.
> >>>
> >>>As follows:
> >>>
> >>><header>
> >>>   <work osisWork="KJV">
> >>>       <title>King James Version of 1611</title>
> >>>       <language>en</language>
> >>>       <identifier type="OSIS">KJV.TutorEncoding</identifier>
> >>>       <refSystem>Bible.KJV</refSystem>
> >>>    </work>
> >>>    <work osisWork="defaultReferenceScheme">
> >>>       <refSystem>Bible.KJV</refSystem>
> >>>       <identifier type="OSIS">Bible.KJV</identifier>
> >>>    </work>
> >>></header>
> >>>
> >>>Todd
> >>>
> >>
> >
>