From yvand.sword at gmail.com Sat Sep 6 17:16:11 2025 From: yvand.sword at gmail.com (Y D) Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2025 23:16:11 +0200 Subject: [sword-devel] French Bible Segond 1910 with Strong's number In-Reply-To: References: <1ebebb32-ad9e-436c-b8be-321044d87384@gmail.com> <8734k51q7d.fsf@paka.dacorbex.fr> <26fc35b5-64e1-4129-8fbd-3b3be3c9f5f9@tiberiade.be>

Message-ID: Sorry I missed the attached patch files. Le sam. 6 sept. 2025 ? 23:14, Y D a ?crit : > Dear all, > > As a reminder, we (see https://concordance.bible) are working on > assigning Strong numbers to several French versions. > > For the version Segond 1910 (text in public domain) our text comes from > the FreSegond1910 Crosswire module. > On our website and in our database, all versions follows the German > versification (WLC for OT and NA for NT). But we are now able to give the > text with Strong numbers in the original versification. This was an > important point that was mentioned in this thread last year. > Moreover we now provide free download of OSIS files (and USX) for Bibles > in public domain (Darby and Segond 1910). We just ask for a mention > "Num?ros Strong affect?s en 2025 par ?Concordances et Traductions de la > Bible? (concordance.bible)." > See https://concordance.bible/Sg1910/download/ (OSIS with German > versification or original versification) > > Our OSIS contains only the text, with no notes, no titles, no paragraph > breaks (like the FreSegond1910 module). > Maybe in the future we will add more data if a reliable source can be > found, with a paper edition would be an asset! > > I attach 2 patches which show the modifications we made in the text (only > 6 typos). You can find them with mod2imp and comparaison. > > *So I suggest to replace FreSegond1910 module with our OSIS file. It will > be the same content, same versification, with only Strong numbers addition.* > URL to download the OSIS file : > https://concordance.bible/media/download/Sg1910-csv_v11n.zip > > Blessings > yvand > > > > Le mer. 6 nov. 2024 ? 16:37, Michael H a ?crit : > >> And there now appear to be several editions available from the Digital >> Bible Library (the source for both Michael and my editions.) I don't know >> from which I started without text checking... >> >> https://thedigitalbiblelibrary.org/whats-inside/ >> >> To see the editions, search for "Segond"... there isn't an easy way to >> share the search result. >> >> >> On Wed, Nov 6, 2024 at 9:26?AM Michael H wrote: >> >>> And this is the work from Michael Johnson's ebible.org >>> >>> https://ebible.org/Scriptures/details.php?id=fraLSG >>> >>> On Wed, Nov 6, 2024 at 9:25?AM Michael H wrote: >>> >>>> FYI: >>>> >>>> I made a French Segond which contains much peripheral text (longer >>>> titles, second titles, cross references, etc.) in addition to the >>>> scripture. It's based on the UBS source (meaning as far as I know it's >>>> based on the actual editions printed by the United Bible Society since >>>> 1910, and not on OCR / Internet editions.) If I remember correctly, my >>>> specific reason for hosting it was that I removed the Strongs numbering. >>>> Besides that, I think I renamed some weird markers related to a 4th or 5th >>>> level of section title in one or more of the books. >>>> >>>> Which leads me to think that Michael Johnson probably currently has >>>> access and hosts an LSG which is a more direct port of the UBS text that >>>> still contains Strongs numbering, and IS the versification of the original. >>>> >>>> (my (for print and reading) edition, in USFM) >>>> >>>> https://github.com/BibleCorps/FRA-B-LSG1910-PD-UBS/blob/main/p.sfm/FRA%5BB%5DLSG1910%5BPD%5DUBS-01-GEN.p.sfm >>>> >>>> Michael Johnson's LSG edition with Strongs numbering >>>> >>>> https://github.com/BibleCorps/FRA-B-LSG1910-PD-UBS/blob/main/p.sfm/FRA%5BB%5DLSG1910%5BPD%5DUBS-01-GEN.p.sfm >>>> >>>> If these texts have issues, please mention it here, because the UBS >>>> should know. >>>> >>>> On Wed, Nov 6, 2024 at 7:33?AM Arnaud Vi? >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi all, >>>>> >>>>> I support Cyrille's suggestion of using wikisource as the main source >>>>> for public domain bibles when we have a good facsimile available. >>>>> >>>>> For those not familiar with how wikisource works, the idea is that one >>>>> can upload a facsimile (in djvu format), and then users can transcribe it >>>>> into text and correct it page by page, making it easy to compare and >>>>> potentially fix. >>>>> See for example this view, on one specific page of the Segond 1910, >>>>> with the facsimile on the right and the transcribed text on the left : >>>>> https://fr.wikisource.org/wiki/Page:La_Sainte_Bible,_trad._Segond,_ed._1910.djvu/8 >>>>> Each page can be edited, then reviewed, corrected, and so on - and the >>>>> wiki setup makes it easy to collaborate. >>>>> There is even the possibility with dedicated markup to annotate >>>>> corrections to the original text : when the original text contains an >>>>> obvious typo that you want to fix, you can edit your fix in while >>>>> preserving the original text with specific markup, so that the document >>>>> still keeps track of the original form and what was corrected. >>>>> >>>>> Then, proper markup while transcribing the text allows wikisource to >>>>> group it as proper books and chapters, format the text, integrate notes, >>>>> etc. >>>>> See the full bible index here : >>>>> https://fr.wikisource.org/wiki/Livre:La_Sainte_Bible,_trad._Segond,_ed._1910.djvu >>>>> With the index page by page on the left, and the reconstructed text >>>>> index by book on the right. >>>>> >>>>> And then, as long as you ensure that your markup is consistent >>>>> throughout your transcription of all pages of the same text (eg. titles of >>>>> the same level are transcribed with the same markup, etc.), it is easy >>>>> enough with my bible scraper to fetch all the books from wikisource and >>>>> convert them into USFM or OSIS - as nicely advertised by Cyrille and Mat?j >>>>> above. >>>>> Which means that if anyone brought some corrections to the wikisource >>>>> text over time, you can just re-run the scraper to get an updated USFM/OSIS >>>>> document with these corrections - you don't need to maintain your own >>>>> document separately. >>>>> >>>>> The only question is how you intend to handle Strong's numbers, since >>>>> they are not present in the original facsimile (at least not the one >>>>> present on wikisource), and therefore not stored in wikisource. >>>>> This means my scraper can only output a document without Strong's >>>>> numbers, and you'd have to inject them in post processing with another tool >>>>> - but from your message above it seems you already have what you need for >>>>> this. >>>>> >>>>> If you want to try going into this direction, I can easily write a >>>>> small scraper configuration file for the Segond version currently available >>>>> on wikisource so that you can try it out. >>>>> >>>>> Regards, >>>>> >>>>> Arnaud >>>>> >>>>> Le mer. 6 nov. 2024 ? 09:27, Fr Cyrille a >>>>> ?crit : >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Le 06/11/2024 ? 00:48, yvand a ?crit : >>>>>> >>>>>> Thank you all for your answers! >>>>>> >>>>>> I think if we can get the text (which is in public domain) from a >>>>>> well-known bible editor, it is interesting and easier. Currently the >>>>>> version Segond 1910 exists in different versions (differences in >>>>>> notes/titles, maybe also in accents ?sa?/Esa? ?) and it is interesting to >>>>>> know to what it corresponds. We can still share typos upstream or/and use a >>>>>> patch to fix typos, and update wikisource text. >>>>>> >>>>>> If wikisource is the source, we need to know if and what paper >>>>>> edition it matches exactly. If the reader can refer to a paper edition, it >>>>>> is interesting. From where will come the text and notes in wikisource? >>>>>> Which choices for notes/titles? >>>>>> >>>>>> Personally, I don't know, but you can check for yourself if the >>>>>> facsimile >>>>>> >>>>>> is correct. I know that a contributor has searched long and hard for this >>>>>> facsimile. I sincerely think that wikisource is the best place. We no >>>>>> longer need to ask anyone for the right to use the text (even in the public >>>>>> domain). What's more, Matej beat me to it: Arnaud's tool is absolutely >>>>>> incredible in its ability to convert to usfm or osis. I invite you to try >>>>>> it out. What's more, Arnaud is very responsive and saved me a lot of work. >>>>>> I now have 3 bibles in French on wikisource, the Glaire, the Giguet and the >>>>>> Crampon. >>>>>> >>>>>> Now the text on wikisource only has the titles for some books. It >>>>>> remains to add the notes/crossreferences. But if you have a text with >>>>>> notes, it can be quite easy to download the wiki text and add the notes. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> https://fr.wikisource.org/wiki/Livre:La_Sainte_Bible,_trad._Segond,_ed._1910.djvu >>>>>> >>>>>> Personally, I found domcox's proposition interesting. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> I connected to DBL and found 2 different projects : >>>>>> >>>>>> - "Fran?ais Louis Segond 1910" (last archive 2020-12-15) >>>>>> >>>>>> - "Louis Segond 1910 Original Corrected (Public Domain version)" >>>>>> (last archive 2024-08-01) ("La Sainte Bible par Louis Segond 1910. >>>>>> Soci?t? Biblique britannique et ?trangere. Texte historique, r?f?rences >>>>>> corrig?es en 2019." "Ce qu'il y a de nouveau dans l'?dition actuelle, ce >>>>>> sont surtout les parall?les. L? o? ces parall?les rendaient superflues les >>>>>> notes de M. Segond, celles-ci ont ?t? supprim?es. De meme, les notes qui >>>>>> exprimaient une opinion th?ologique, ou qui pr?sentaient un commentairs sur >>>>>> le texte, ont ?t? laiss?s de cote, conformement aux statuts de la Soci?t?, >>>>>> qui excluent de ses ?ditions de ?critures des notes de ce genre.") >>>>>> >>>>>> Both are published by British & Foreign Bible Society >>>>>> >>>>>> But the access seem not public. As this Bible is in public domain, I >>>>>> guess they will share with us if we ask. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Maybe Michael can help us to how the source of his module and how he >>>>>> did it? Is it based on DBL? If so which project and what tool do you use? >>>>>> from USX or USFM export? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> For versification, I agree with domcox's remark, we can keep the >>>>>> original versification. I can convert from our versification (WLC for OT / >>>>>> NA for NT) to the segond versification with a script. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> If we go that way, I guess we need to do those steps: >>>>>> >>>>>> 1. Access DBL, export data (text, notes, titles if present) in USX or >>>>>> USFM from Paratext >>>>>> >>>>>> 2. Convert to OSIS (better for sword and required because USX and >>>>>> USFM do not support Strong's number, isn't it ?) >>>>>> >>>>>> 3. Add Strong's numbers (= add tags on words) : for this, I can >>>>>> work to match exactly the text from the previous OSIS in our database, and >>>>>> develop a tool to add the last version of our Strong's numbers on it. >>>>>> >>>>>> 4. Update sword module >>>>>> >>>>>> The last two steps (3. and 4.) will be regularly relaunched, because >>>>>> we do corrections on Strong's numbers regurlarly. It is still a work in >>>>>> progress, but I think the work is already not so not too bad. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> @Fr Cyrille : We need to exchange by email (not here) if and how we >>>>>> can help you to add Strong's numbers on your n?o-crampon version. Our >>>>>> initial assignment tool (for Strong's numbers) has gathered dust and >>>>>> requires french lemmatization and proper versification versions with the >>>>>> WLC or NA to be effective. Can you send me a mail in French, with more >>>>>> details (what is this new version? is it close to other French versions >>>>>> other than Crampon? what is the actual format you use? which >>>>>> versification??). >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> yvand >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Le 05/11/2024 ? 19:38, domcox a ?crit : >>>>>> >>>>>> yvand writes: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> For Segond 1910, the text is in public domain. I used mod2imp to get >>>>>> the text from the FreSegond (Crosswire) module months >>>>>> ago. The only changes we made are about versification. Indeed all our >>>>>> texts use the same versification (based on WLC, for OT = >>>>>> German in sword), so the text matches the original (hebrew WLC or >>>>>> greek MT/WH) one and we can easily compare >>>>>> translations. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> As lot of people still read the printed French Segond 1910 or >>>>>> derivatives, I think it's very important to match the printed >>>>>> versification. Regular readers generally view Bible software with not >>>>>> matching versifications as second-rate software. >>>>>> We have a matching Bible Segond versification, let's keep it that >>>>>> way. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> In the past, the FreLSG module had Strong's numbers. If I am correct >>>>>> (see discussion "Strong numbers for Louis Segond" in >>>>>> 2013/07), we do not have the authorization (but still available in >>>>>> STEP) so this module has been removed or replaced by >>>>>> FreSegond module (renamed ?). >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> In the past, the FreLSG had Strong's numbers. It was upgraded later >>>>>> to a new version that was horrible, filled with errors >>>>>> and even containing deuteros that never existed in the Segond Bible. >>>>>> >>>>>> This is why I made the FreSegond module, it was not an easy task. The >>>>>> Segond Bible is everywhere on the Web, but it looks like >>>>>> all sites use the same source, and it's not accurate. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> The fraLSG1910eb (F10) module is a more recent one, available in >>>>>> e-bible repo with headings, WoC and Strong's numbers. It >>>>>> seems to be a work in progress for Strong's numbers. They are not >>>>>> available for all books. I compare Strong's numbers >>>>>> affectations for the first verses of Genesis 1 (see attached >>>>>> screenshot) but there are errors in this module. On the left this >>>>>> module, on the right our data ( >>>>>> https://concordance.bible/Sg1910/Gen/1/). >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> If I remember well, Michael have access to the DBL, so his module is >>>>>> certainly based on the official Public Domain version, >>>>>> edited by the Alliance Biblique Fran?aise ( >>>>>> https://lire.la-bible.net/bible/LSG/GEN.1) >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> So I contact all of you (especially actual maintainers of Segond 1910 >>>>>> modules and French users) what would be the >>>>>> best way of giving our Strong's numbers for Segond 1910 in a sword >>>>>> module. I don't know who is concerned or interested >>>>>> that's why I send to the mailing list. >>>>>> >>>>>> As there is already many existing Segond 1910 sword module, it guess >>>>>> it would not be a good idea of creating a new one. On >>>>>> one side, as our text is based from FreSegond module, it might be a >>>>>> good idea of updating this module with Strong's numbers >>>>>> (the only difference is versification). On the other hand, the >>>>>> fraLSG1910eb module offers Strong's numbers but our data seems >>>>>> more accurate and complete, so it could be interesting of updating >>>>>> this module. In any case, it would be important to submit >>>>>> updates regularly for Strong's numbers. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> I think the best option for this module should be: >>>>>> >>>>>> 1. Have access to the DBL version >>>>>> 2. Update the current CrossWire module from that source with >>>>>> footnotes, comments and cross-references, keeping the original >>>>>> versification >>>>>> 3. Add Strong's numbers >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> sword-devel mailing list: sword-devel at crosswire.orghttp://crosswire.org/mailman/listinfo/sword-devel >>>>>> Instructions to unsubscribe/change your settings at above page >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Vous aimez la Bible?? Vous ?tes ?tudiant en th?ologie?? Utilisez >>>>>> l'application libre Xiphos ou Andbible >>>>>> et acc?dez aux textes sources, ? des >>>>>> commentaires, des dictionnaires et beaucoup d'autres fonctionnalit?s... Me >>>>>> contacter pour des traductions en fran?ais. >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> sword-devel mailing list: sword-devel at crosswire.org >>>>>> http://crosswire.org/mailman/listinfo/sword-devel >>>>>> Instructions to unsubscribe/change your settings at above page >>>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> sword-devel mailing list: sword-devel at crosswire.org >>>>> http://crosswire.org/mailman/listinfo/sword-devel >>>>> Instructions to unsubscribe/change your settings at above page >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >> sword-devel mailing list: sword-devel at crosswire.org >> http://crosswire.org/mailman/listinfo/sword-devel >> Instructions to unsubscribe/change your settings at above page >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... 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