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The better the automation the more likely something like this could
be done for other languages, such as Malagasy where I am this
month. This thought might make the extra work seem more worthwhile.<br>
<br>
Looking forward to what comes of this,<br>
<br>
art bolstad<br>
On 3/19/2011 4:04 PM, David Instone-Brewer wrote:
<blockquote cite="mid:4d84aa7c.a08dd80a.53c1.ffffae6f@mx.google.com"
type="cite">
Dear Rob<br>
<br>
(I may have sent this before, but I found it in my out mail with a
wrong
address on it. Apologies if you get it twice)<br>
<br>
Could you have a go at displaying the transliterated Hebrew and a
one-word translation as well as Strong's number. (I'm not sure
where you
will put it all!<br>
I'll send you a file with the data - you'd use the non-italic text
of
col.4 and the first word of the last col.<br>
This file doesn't have !a and !b so just put in the word for the
number,
but don't lose the !a & !b<br>
<br>
And, if we split up the second line into separate words, we might
try to
provide some way to help people pick two or three consecutive
words in
the same tag.<br>
And it would be great to have the option of making the Hebrew
visible
(though it should probably be invisible by default so as not to
frighten
people away).<br>
<br>
I'm hoping that we are creating something which can be used for
other
translations - not just the ESV.<br>
<br>
David IB<br>
<br>
================<br>
<br>
Here's a summary of where we are: <br>
<br>
We are trying to make a version of ESV with Strongs tagging, using
the
tagged NASB text as a starting point. <br>
<br>
THe process we are attempting is: <br>
<br>
1) convert the NASB XML text to something which looks like a
BibleWorks
exported text <br>
(ie each verse on one line starting with a simple ref (eg Gen
1:1
In the beginning...)<br>
<br>
2) use the Word 2003+ text comparison tools (which are much
superior to
Word 97) to compare the text of both versions producing something
like:
<dl>
<dd>Gen 1:2 <w H776>The earth</w> was
<b><s>formless</s> </b><w H8414><b>formless</b></w>
<w
H922>and void</w>, and <w H2822>darkness
</w> <w
H5921>was over</w> the <w H6440><b><s>sur</s></b>face
</w>
<w H8415>of the deep</w><b><s>, and</s> . And
</b><w H7307>the Spirit </w> <w H430>of
God</w>
was <w H7363!b><b><s>moving</s> hovering </b></w>
<w
H5921>over</w> the <w H6440><b><s>sur</s></b>face
</w>
<w H4325>of the waters. </w>.<br>
<br>
</dd>
</dl>
3) create a site where human can easily correct this automatic
markup<br>
- eg the proof of concept
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.slowley.com/tagger-proof-of-concept/example.html">
here</a>. <br>
<br>
4) merge the resultant text with the verb parsing in the tagged
KJV<br>
<br>
Since starting this, I've heard from Troy who originally organised
the
team who tagged the NASB. He says his method is: <br>
<br>
<dl>
<dd>1) starts with a lemma tagged text, the KJV, and CrossWay's
ESV data
in OSIS format. </dd>
<dd>2) the ESV module is iterated each verse at a time and is
processed
as such: </dd>
<dd>3) the OSIS markup is stripped from the ESV text and
positioning
information is retained </dd>
<dd>4) a word table is built from the KJV text: </dd>
<dd> KJV Word 1
| Strongs # </dd>
<dd> KJV Word 2
| Strongs # </dd>
<dd>5) a second table is build from the ESV text: </dd>
<dd> ESV Word 1 | </dd>
<dd> ESV Word 2 | </dd>
<dd>6) these tables are passed to a function which is
responsible solely
for the logic to fill in the second part of the second table
with
Strong's numbers. </dd>
<dd>7) the returned table is used to reconstitute the the OSIS
tags to
the ESV text including word-level Strong's markup. </dd>
<dd>See a screenshot for the community collaboration tool for
KJV Strongs
markup project is at
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://crosswire.org/sword/kjv2003/#ss">
http://crosswire.org/sword/kjv2003/#ss</a> </dd>
<dd>We're hoping to convert it to a web application instead of a
standalone Java GUI, but that hasn't happened yet.
</dd>
<dd>I'd love to work together on this effort. Please keep me
posted
on any progress and let me know if I can help in anyway.
</dd>
<dd>Troy<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</dd>
</dl>
At 10:18 17/03/2011, Robert Slowley wrote:<br>
<blockquote type="cite" class="cite" cite="">So, presumably if you
could
script it to break each chapter in to a<br>
separate file, do the comparisons, and then re-export as a
single
file<br>
we could import that in to a tool like mine so a human could fix
the<br>
errors and do the bits the auto-comparison failed to do.<br>
<br>
On Tue, Mar 15, 2011 at 8:19 AM, David Instone-Brewer<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:davidinstonebrewer@gmail.com"><davidinstonebrewer@gmail.com></a> wrote:<br>
> From the automatic comparisons produced by Word, we get:<br>
><br>
> Gen 1:1 <w H7225>In the beginning,</w> <w
H430>God</w> <w<br>
> H1254!a>created</w> <w H8064>the
heavens</w>
<w H776>and the earth </w>.<br>
> Gen 1:2 <w H776>The earth</w> was <w
H8414>without form</w> <w H922>and<br>
> void</w>, and <w H2822>darkness</w> <w
H5921>was over</w> the <w<br>
> H6440>face</w> <w H8415>of the
deep</w>. And
<w H7307>the Spirit</w> <w<br>
> H430>of God</w> was <w H7363!b>hovering
</w>
<w H5921>over</w> the <w<br>
> H6440>face</w> <w H4325>of the waters
</w>.<br>
><br>
> - ie the first two verses are already perfectly tagged. In
fact
there aren't<br>
> any problems in Gen.1 till we get to v.5:<br>
><br>
> Gen 1:5 <w H430>God</w> <w
H7121>called</w> <w H216>the light</w>
<w<br>
> H3117>Day</w>, <w H2822>and the
darkness</w>
<w H7121>he called</w> <w<br>
> H3915>Night.</w>. And <w H6153>there was
evening</w> <w H1242>and there was<br>
> morningthe first</w>, <w H259>one</w>
<w
H3117>day</w>.<br>
><br>
> The problem is that Word gives up making these comparisons
after a
few<br>
> chapters.<br>
> Some of these problems can be cleared up by macros.<br>
><br>
> David IB<br>
><br>
> At 00:43 15/03/2011, Robert Slowley wrote:<br>
><br>
>> I think I can produce a better text to produce
something which
has less to<br>
>> correct.<br>
> What do you mean?<br>
><br>
>> It would be useful to have transliterated Hebrew and a
single-word meaning<br>
>> instead of the numbers.<br>
> I have an electronic copy of the stuff you get on popups on<br>
>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://classic.net.bible.org/verse.php?search=Genesis%201:30&book=genesis&chapter=1&verse=30"
eudora="autourl">
http://classic.net.bible.org/verse.php?search=Genesis%201:30&book=genesis&chapter=1&verse=30</a>
<br>
> for Strongs already - which I was planning to integrate. If
the<br>
> numbers are replaced with 'transliterated Hebrew' or a
'single-word<br>
> meaning' what specifically would that mean?<br>
><br>
> For instance on<br>
>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://classic.net.bible.org/verse.php?search=Genesis%201:30&book=genesis&chapter=1&verse=30"
eudora="autourl">
http://classic.net.bible.org/verse.php?search=Genesis%201:30&book=genesis&chapter=1&verse=30</a>
<br>
> for the strongs reference h03651, which is the
transliterated
hebrew,<br>
> and which is the single word meaning?<br>
><br>
>> It would be useful to divide the top line by the
tagging, not by
any<br>
>> English<br>
>> parsing<br>
>> eg Gen.1.30 || and to every thing (h3605 )||<br>
>> instead of || and to every
(h3605) || thing (h3605 ) ||<br>
> In the case of Genesis 1:30 the text behind it is:<br>
> NASB: ... <w H3605>and to every</w> <w
H3605>thing</w> ...<br>
><br>
> Presumably there is a reason for the text to have two
separate sets
of<br>
> words both tagged individually with H3605? Or is it just a
markup<br>
> error?<br>
><br>
> Presumably in some cases it words should be merged if they
have
the<br>
> same strongs and are next to each other, but in other
cases,
this<br>
> isn't the case, e.g. Isa 6:3<br>
>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://classic.net.bible.org/verse.php?search=isa%206:3&book=isa&chapter=6&verse=3"
eudora="autourl">
http://classic.net.bible.org/verse.php?search=isa%206:3&book=isa&chapter=6&verse=3</a>
<br>
><br>
> Has:<br>
><br>
> <w H6918>Holy</w>, <w
H6918>Holy</w>, <w
H6918>Holy</w>, is the <w<br>
> H3068>Lord</w> <w H6635>of hosts</w><br>
><br>
> because the Hebrew has swdq repeated 3 times, and I assume
that
the<br>
> reader who understands Strong's gets this indication by it
being<br>
> repeated rather than there being <w H6918>Holy, Holy,
Holy</w>. Is<br>
> that right?<br>
><br>
>> It might be better to have the bottom line with a
separate box
for very<br>
>> word. Sometimes we will want to divide things up
differently<br>
> As I see it we have 'phrases' (a set of one or more words)
which
may<br>
> have one or more strongs references. In some cases a set of
words
with<br>
> have a shared strongs reference, but in other cases like
Isa 6:3
sets<br>
> of contiguous words may have the same strongs references
but still
be<br>
> separate 'phrases'. As I see it there's no automatically
working
this<br>
> out.<br>
><br>
> What I was thinking was to have some algorithm that tries
to<br>
> automatically map the NASB strongs annotations on to the
ESV
text,<br>
> similar to what I have already crudely done here. That can
either
try<br>
> to group things as the NASB does (where a set of contiguous
words<br>
> share a strongs reference), or do what I have done here
(which
is<br>
> easier) which is to automatically group words in to a
'phrase'
where<br>
> they share the same strongs references.<br>
><br>
> Either way not all of the ESV can be automatically
annotated in
this<br>
> way, the annotation will be wrong in some cases, and the
automated<br>
> grouping may be wrong in some cases. So I was thinking of
making
the<br>
> interface such that once the automated grouping has been
attempted
the<br>
> end user can click on a box which will make it selected,
then click
on<br>
> the next box to the left or right (and so on), when this is
done
a<br>
> button for "merging in to a phrase" would appear - then if
this is<br>
> clicked they would be made in to a phrase and could have
their
strongs<br>
> references assigned. Alternatively clicking on a box that
represents
a<br>
> phrase of one or more words will cause a "demerge" button
to appear<br>
> that will separate out all the words. This will allow the
end user
to<br>
> handle both types of situation.<br>
><br>
> I also thought some sort of "This verse is tagged
correctly" button<br>
> would be good. In some cases the program will annotate
everything,
but<br>
> it will still need to be checked by a human - and a human
may
wish<br>
> their annotation to be checked by someone else for quality
purposes.<br>
> When a verse is marked as correct, it can have a tick or
something,<br>
> and there can be a page of "verses that need work" which
it would<br>
> automatically be removed from. Does that sound sensible?<br>
><br>
> We have easy access to the SBLGNT (with apparatus) and
Leningrad<br>
> Codex. Is it worthwhile including those for each verse? I
don't
know<br>
> what process an annotator would go through, and what level
of<br>
> knowledge of the original languages they would use.<br>
><br>
> I worked a bit today on tidying up the classes I've
written,
and<br>
> improving the processing of the text (in the next few weeks
I'll
send<br>
> you a list of the suspicious stuff I found while processing
your
files<br>
> ;-) ). I'm away next week for my 1st year's anniversary
holiday -
but<br>
> after that can start work on making this in to an actual
web app
that<br>
> would be useful rather than a static web page demo of the
sort
of<br>
> thing I had in mind.<br>
><br>
> Any thoughts / comments / ideas appreciated!<br>
><br>
> It'd probably be a good idea to see if we can improve the
automatic<br>
> annotation of the ESV from the NASB if we can, as any
progress
made<br>
> here before people start manually annotating / checking
will
reduce<br>
> the amount of man hours needed to complete the task.<br>
><br>
> -Rob<br>
> --<br>
>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.slowley.com/"
eudora="autourl">
http://www.slowley.com/</a><br>
><br>
> "On two occasions, I have been asked [by members of
Parliament],<br>
> 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong
figures,
will<br>
> the right answers come out?' I am not able to rightly
apprehend
the<br>
> kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a
question."<br>
> -- Charles Babbage (1791-1871)<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
-- <br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.slowley.com/"
eudora="autourl">
http://www.slowley.com/</a><br>
<br>
"On two occasions, I have been asked [by members of
Parliament],<br>
'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures,
will<br>
the right answers come out?' I am not able to rightly apprehend
the<br>
kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question."<br>
-- Charles Babbage (1791-1871)</blockquote>
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<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
Arthur Bolstad
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.arthurbolstad.com">www.arthurbolstad.com</a></pre>
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