<html><body><div dir="ltr">I do not think this is a reason for any angst and hand wringing. Correct it in our isn source and submit the correction to upstream.</div><div id="ms-outlook-mobile-body-separator-line" dir="ltr"><br></div><div id="ms-outlook-mobile-signature">Sent from <a href="https://aka.ms/o0ukef">Outlook for iOS</a></div><div> </div><hr style="display: inline-block; width: 98%;"><div id="divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><b>From:</b> sword-devel <sword-devel-bounces@crosswire.org> on behalf of David Haslam <dfhdfh@protonmail.com><br><b>Sent:</b> Sunday, March 16, 2025 8:08 am<br><b>To:</b> SWORD Developers' Collaboration Forum <sword-devel@crosswire.org><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [sword-devel] Module TischMorph & other Ancient Greek modules - getting rid of the quotation mark?</span><div style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"> </div></div><div style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;">Indeed, getting all the upstream Greek NT sources fixed would be ideal, but this "category mistake" has become so entrenched since before the advent of computers, I suspect we'd have an uphill struggle.</div><div dir="ltr" style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;"><br></div><div style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;">It's all the more frustrating when one realizes that there are only <b>21</b> distinct words in a Greek NT where this inappropriate Unicode character was used! That these fairly short words are quite common is what accounts for the overall total of 1219.</div><div dir="ltr" style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;"><br></div><div style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;">That figure was calculated after I used <b>BabelPad Tools</b> to perform a <b>Word Frequency</b> analysis both <b><i>before</i></b> and <b><i>after</i></b> replacing each U+2019 by U+0315 as part of my experiment.<br><br>To illustrate this, I have attached the resulting <b>diff</b> file.</div><div dir="ltr" style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;"><br></div><div style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;">NB. Because U+2019 is not a "word character", it's not present in the <span style="background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><b><i>before</i></b></span> analysis.</div><div dir="ltr" style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;"><br></div><div style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;">Refer also to the transcript of the <b><i>second part</i></b> of my AI chat with Leo, as per my email sent late last night.</div><div dir="ltr" style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;"><br></div><div style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;"><b>How can we persuade the wider community of NT Scholarship and Textual Criticism to fix this long-standing category mistake?</b></div><div dir="ltr" style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;"><br></div><div class="protonmail_signature_block-user" style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;">
Best regards,<br><br>David
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On Sunday, March 16th, 2025 at 12:26 AM, Greg Hellings <greg.hellings@gmail.com> wrote:<br>
</div><blockquote><div dir="ltr" class="protonmail_quote">It sounds like the text is using the wrong character. Would it not be better to go back to the source text and fix it there? That would benefit everyone who consumes that text, and not just people looking at the appearance of the text through a Sword client with sufficiently up-to-date filters.</div><div dir="ltr" class="protonmail_quote"><br></div><div dir="ltr" class="protonmail_quote">Why is the text using an apostrophe character in the first place, rather than the appropriate accent character?</div><div dir="ltr" class="protonmail_quote"><br></div><div dir="ltr" class="protonmail_quote">--Greg</div><div dir="ltr" class="protonmail_quote"><br></div><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sat, Mar 15, 2025 at 1:46 PM David Haslam <<a href="mailto:dfhdfh@protonmail.com" rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener">dfhdfh@protonmail.com</a>> wrote:</div><blockquote style="margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex; border-left-width: 1px; border-left-style: solid; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204);"><div class="gmail_quote" style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;">Further to my message sent to the <b>modules</b> team, I have suggestion for SWORD developers.</div><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_quote" style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;"><br></div><div class="gmail_quote" style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;">Modify how <b>GlobalOptionFilter</b>=<b>UTF8GreekAccents</b> works with respect to U+2019.</div><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_quote" style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;"><br></div><div class="gmail_quote" style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;">Currently the filter doesn't care how this codepoint is being used <i>semantically</i>.</div><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_quote" style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;"><br></div><div class="gmail_quote" style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;">We could make a <u>practical change</u> as follows:</div><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_quote" style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;"><br></div><div class="gmail_quote" style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;"><u>Rule</u>: Do <b>not</b> hide U+2019 if the preceding character is <b>not</b> a Greek letter.</div><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_quote" style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;"><br></div><div class="gmail_quote" style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;">However, that would not be sufficient to cover all the cases in the <b>StatResGNT</b> module currently in CrossWire Beta.</div><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_quote" style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;"><br></div><div class="gmail_quote" style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;">Here's one that's better:</div><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_quote" style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;"><br></div><div class="gmail_quote" style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;"><u>Rule</u>: Do <b>not</b> hide U+2019 if the preceding character is <b>not</b> a word character.</div><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_quote" style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;"><br></div><div class="gmail_quote" style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;">With this in operation, the source text would <b>not</b> need to be changed in those places where the RIGHT SINGLE QUOTATION MARK is immediately after a <b>punctuation mark</b>.</div><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_quote" style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;"><br></div><div class="gmail_quote" style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;">Then what about the remaining places where it is immediately after a <b>Greek letter</b>?</div><div class="gmail_quote" style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;"><br>A simple <i>kludge</i> for an improved <u>source text</u> would be to insert a <b>zero width space</b> or a <b>zero width non joiner</b>. Doing so would protect the quotation mark from being treated <i>contrarily</i> as a <b>Greek diacritic</b> when its purpose is simply to close a quotation.</div><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_quote" style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;"><br></div><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_quote" style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;"><br></div><div class="gmail_quote" style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;">
Best regards,<br><br>David
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On Saturday, March 15th, 2025 at 6:02 PM, David Haslam <<a href="mailto:dfhdfh@protonmail.com" rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener">dfhdfh@protonmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
</div><blockquote><div class="gmail_quote" style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;">Thinking about the <b>teleological conflict</b> caused by using U+2019 RIGHT SINGLE QUOTATION MARK as a <b>Greek Diacritic</b>,<br>
I wish to suggest that in modules where this was the case, that we might replace all U+2019 by U+0315 COMBINING COMMA ABOVE RIGHT.</div><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_quote" style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;"><br></div><div class="gmail_quote" style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;">This displays very similarly, viz</div><ul style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"><li style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13.5pt; list-style-type: disc;"><span style="line-height: normal;">U+2019 παρ’</span></li><li style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13.5pt; list-style-type: disc;"><span style="line-height: normal;">U+0315 παρ̕</span></li></ul><div class="gmail_quote" style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;">NB. The latter was <u>not</u> already used anywhere in the <b>TischMorph</b> module.</div><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_quote" style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;"><br></div><div class="gmail_quote" style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;">The advantage would be that if we did this to all the <b>Ancient Greek</b> modules and to any other module that makes the same <b><i>contrary</i></b> use of U+2019,</div><div class="gmail_quote" style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;">then eventually, we might update the SWORD engine such that it no longer hides it with <b>GlobalOptionFilter=UTF8GreekAccents</b>.</div><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_quote" style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;"><br></div><div class="gmail_quote" style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;">
This would free up U+2019 for it's <b><i>proper</i></b> use as a <span style="background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">RIGHT SINGLE QUOTATION MARK to end speech begun with U+2018 LEFT SINGLE QUOTATION MARK.<br></span>We have just encountered this use in Beta module <b>StatResGNT</b> which contains sections of text marked with both DOUBLE and SINGLE QUOTATION marks.<br>
<br>I propose therefore that we perform an <u>experiment</u>, by implementing my suggestion first in module <b>TischMorph</b>, last updated 2012-01-09.</div><div class="gmail_quote" style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;">This has 1218 instances of <span style="background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">U+2019 and in each case, it's used <b><i>contrarily</i></b> as a <b>Greek Diacritic.</b></span></div><div class="gmail_quote" style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;"><b><br></b>
Here's a counted list of the Greek letters that are followed by a U+2019.</div><blockquote style="padding-left: 10px; border-left-width: 3px; border-left-style: solid; border-left-color: rgb(200, 200, 200);"><div class="gmail_quote" style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13.5pt; color: rgb(102, 102, 102);"><span style="line-height: normal;">0031 δ’</span></div><div class="gmail_quote" style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13.5pt; color: rgb(102, 102, 102);"><span style="line-height: normal;">0109 θ’</span></div><div class="gmail_quote" style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13.5pt; color: rgb(102, 102, 102);"><span style="line-height: normal;">0232 τ’</span></div><div class="gmail_quote" style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13.5pt; color: rgb(102, 102, 102);"><span style="line-height: normal;">0287 π’</span></div><div class="gmail_quote" style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13.5pt; color: rgb(102, 102, 102);"><span style="line-height: normal;">0221 λ’</span></div><div class="gmail_quote" style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13.5pt; color: rgb(102, 102, 102);"><span style="line-height: normal;">0135 φ’</span></div><div class="gmail_quote" style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13.5pt; color: rgb(102, 102, 102);"><span style="line-height: normal;">0059 ρ’</span></div><div class="gmail_quote" style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13.5pt; color: rgb(102, 102, 102);"><span style="line-height: normal;">0144 ι’</span></div></blockquote><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_quote" style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;"><br></div><div class="gmail_quote" style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;">This is how they would look if the proposed replacements were made:</div><blockquote style="padding-left: 10px; border-left-width: 3px; border-left-style: solid; border-left-color: rgb(200, 200, 200);"><div class="gmail_quote" style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13.5pt; color: rgb(102, 102, 102);"><span style="line-height: normal;">0031 δ̕</span></div><div class="gmail_quote" style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13.5pt; color: rgb(102, 102, 102);"><span style="line-height: normal;">0109 θ̕</span></div><div class="gmail_quote" style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13.5pt; color: rgb(102, 102, 102);"><span style="line-height: normal;">0232 τ̕</span></div><div class="gmail_quote" style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13.5pt; color: rgb(102, 102, 102);"><span style="line-height: normal;">0287 π̕</span></div><div class="gmail_quote" style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13.5pt; color: rgb(102, 102, 102);"><span style="line-height: normal;">0221 λ̕</span></div><div class="gmail_quote" style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13.5pt; color: rgb(102, 102, 102);"><span style="line-height: normal;">0135 φ̕</span></div><div class="gmail_quote" style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13.5pt; color: rgb(102, 102, 102);"><span style="line-height: normal;">0059 ρ̕</span></div><div class="gmail_quote" style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13.5pt; color: rgb(102, 102, 102);"><span style="line-height: normal;">0144 ι̕</span></div></blockquote><div class="gmail_quote" style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;"><br>
</div><div class="gmail_quote" style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;">NB. The upstream source for this module is no longer found at <a href="http://morphgnt.org/" rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener">http://morphgnt.org/</a></div><div class="gmail_quote" style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;">The URL now just displays a <b>404</b> message saying "There isn't a GitHub Pages site here."</div><div class="gmail_quote" style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;">If we can no longer find where it may have moved, we might have to use a "round trip" of <b>mod2imp</b> and <b>imp2vs</b> to rebuild the module with my suggested change.</div><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_quote" style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;"><br></div><div class="gmail_quote" style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;">If my suggestion has any merit, we should also first discuss it with <b>NT scholars</b> such as our friends at <b>STEP Bible</b> and their friends at <b>Tyndale House</b>.</div><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_quote" style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;"><br></div><div class="gmail_quote" style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;">
Best regards,<br><br>David
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