<div style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;">FYI: I've just created an issue <u>upstream</u> here:</div><div style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;"><br></div><div style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;"><a href="https://github.com/morphgnt/tischendorf/issues/9">Greek diacritics and getting rid of the quotation mark? · Issue #9 · morphgnt/tischendorf</a><br></div><div style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;"><br></div>
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On Sunday, March 16th, 2025 at 11:40 AM, Peter von Kaehne <refdoc@gmx.net> wrote:<br>
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<div dir="ltr">I do not think this is a reason for any angst and hand wringing. Correct it in our isn source and submit the correction to upstream.</div><div dir="ltr" id="ms-outlook-mobile-body-separator-line"><br></div><div id="ms-outlook-mobile-signature">Sent from <a href="https://aka.ms/o0ukef" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener">Outlook for iOS</a></div><div> </div><hr style="display: inline-block; width: 98%;"><div dir="ltr" id="divRplyFwdMsg"><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><b>From:</b> sword-devel <sword-devel-bounces@crosswire.org> on behalf of David Haslam <dfhdfh@protonmail.com><br><b>Sent:</b> Sunday, March 16, 2025 8:08 am<br><b>To:</b> SWORD Developers' Collaboration Forum <sword-devel@crosswire.org><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [sword-devel] Module TischMorph & other Ancient Greek modules - getting rid of the quotation mark?</span><div style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"> </div></div><div style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;">Indeed, getting all the upstream Greek NT sources fixed would be ideal, but this "category mistake" has become so entrenched since before the advent of computers, I suspect we'd have an uphill struggle.</div><div style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;" dir="ltr"><br></div><div style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;">It's all the more frustrating when one realizes that there are only <b>21</b> distinct words in a Greek NT where this inappropriate Unicode character was used! That these fairly short words are quite common is what accounts for the overall total of 1219.</div><div style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;" dir="ltr"><br></div><div style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;">That figure was calculated after I used <b>BabelPad Tools</b> to perform a <b>Word Frequency</b> analysis both <b><i>before</i></b> and <b><i>after</i></b> replacing each U+2019 by U+0315 as part of my experiment.<br><br>To illustrate this, I have attached the resulting <b>diff</b> file.</div><div style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;" dir="ltr"><br></div><div style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;">NB. Because U+2019 is not a "word character", it's not present in the <span style="background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><b><i>before</i></b></span> analysis.</div><div style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;" dir="ltr"><br></div><div style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;">Refer also to the transcript of the <b><i>second part</i></b> of my AI chat with Leo, as per my email sent late last night.</div><div style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;" dir="ltr"><br></div><div style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;"><b>How can we persuade the wider community of NT Scholarship and Textual Criticism to fix this long-standing category mistake?</b></div><div style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;" dir="ltr"><br></div><div style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;" class="protonmail_signature_block-user">
Best regards,<br><br>David
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On Sunday, March 16th, 2025 at 12:26 AM, Greg Hellings <greg.hellings@gmail.com> wrote:<br>
</div><blockquote><div class="protonmail_quote" dir="ltr">It sounds like the text is using the wrong character. Would it not be better to go back to the source text and fix it there? That would benefit everyone who consumes that text, and not just people looking at the appearance of the text through a Sword client with sufficiently up-to-date filters.</div><div class="protonmail_quote" dir="ltr"><br></div><div class="protonmail_quote" dir="ltr">Why is the text using an apostrophe character in the first place, rather than the appropriate accent character?</div><div class="protonmail_quote" dir="ltr"><br></div><div class="protonmail_quote" dir="ltr">--Greg</div><div class="protonmail_quote" dir="ltr"><br></div><div class="gmail_attr" dir="ltr">On Sat, Mar 15, 2025 at 1:46 PM David Haslam <<a rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener" href="mailto:dfhdfh@protonmail.com">dfhdfh@protonmail.com</a>> wrote:</div><blockquote style="margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex; border-left-width: 1px; border-left-style: solid; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204);"><div style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;" class="gmail_quote">Further to my message sent to the <b>modules</b> team, I have suggestion for SWORD developers.</div><div style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;" class="gmail_quote" dir="ltr"><br></div><div style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;" class="gmail_quote">Modify how <b>GlobalOptionFilter</b>=<b>UTF8GreekAccents</b> works with respect to U+2019.</div><div style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;" class="gmail_quote" dir="ltr"><br></div><div style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;" class="gmail_quote">Currently the filter doesn't care how this codepoint is being used <i>semantically</i>.</div><div style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;" class="gmail_quote" dir="ltr"><br></div><div style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;" class="gmail_quote">We could make a <u>practical change</u> as follows:</div><div style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;" class="gmail_quote" dir="ltr"><br></div><div style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;" class="gmail_quote"><u>Rule</u>: Do <b>not</b> hide U+2019 if the preceding character is <b>not</b> a Greek letter.</div><div style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;" class="gmail_quote" dir="ltr"><br></div><div style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;" class="gmail_quote">However, that would not be sufficient to cover all the cases in the <b>StatResGNT</b> module currently in CrossWire Beta.</div><div style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;" class="gmail_quote" dir="ltr"><br></div><div style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;" class="gmail_quote">Here's one that's better:</div><div style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;" class="gmail_quote" dir="ltr"><br></div><div style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;" class="gmail_quote"><u>Rule</u>: Do <b>not</b> hide U+2019 if the preceding character is <b>not</b> a word character.</div><div style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;" class="gmail_quote" dir="ltr"><br></div><div style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;" class="gmail_quote">With this in operation, the source text would <b>not</b> need to be changed in those places where the RIGHT SINGLE QUOTATION MARK is immediately after a <b>punctuation mark</b>.</div><div style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;" class="gmail_quote" dir="ltr"><br></div><div style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;" class="gmail_quote">Then what about the remaining places where it is immediately after a <b>Greek letter</b>?</div><div style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;" class="gmail_quote"><br>A simple <i>kludge</i> for an improved <u>source text</u> would be to insert a <b>zero width space</b> or a <b>zero width non joiner</b>. Doing so would protect the quotation mark from being treated <i>contrarily</i> as a <b>Greek diacritic</b> when its purpose is simply to close a quotation.</div><div style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;" class="gmail_quote" dir="ltr"><br></div><div style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;" class="gmail_quote" dir="ltr"><br></div><div style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;" class="gmail_quote">
Best regards,<br><br>David
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On Saturday, March 15th, 2025 at 6:02 PM, David Haslam <<a rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener" href="mailto:dfhdfh@protonmail.com">dfhdfh@protonmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
</div><blockquote><div style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;" class="gmail_quote">Thinking about the <b>teleological conflict</b> caused by using U+2019 RIGHT SINGLE QUOTATION MARK as a <b>Greek Diacritic</b>,<br>
I wish to suggest that in modules where this was the case, that we might replace all U+2019 by U+0315 COMBINING COMMA ABOVE RIGHT.</div><div style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;" class="gmail_quote" dir="ltr"><br></div><div style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;" class="gmail_quote">This displays very similarly, viz</div><ul style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"><li style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13.5pt; list-style-type: disc;"><span style="line-height: normal;">U+2019 παρ’</span></li><li style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13.5pt; list-style-type: disc;"><span style="line-height: normal;">U+0315 παρ̕</span></li></ul><div style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;" class="gmail_quote">NB. The latter was <u>not</u> already used anywhere in the <b>TischMorph</b> module.</div><div style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;" class="gmail_quote" dir="ltr"><br></div><div style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;" class="gmail_quote">The advantage would be that if we did this to all the <b>Ancient Greek</b> modules and to any other module that makes the same <b><i>contrary</i></b> use of U+2019,</div><div style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;" class="gmail_quote">then eventually, we might update the SWORD engine such that it no longer hides it with <b>GlobalOptionFilter=UTF8GreekAccents</b>.</div><div style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;" class="gmail_quote" dir="ltr"><br></div><div style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;" class="gmail_quote">
This would free up U+2019 for it's <b><i>proper</i></b> use as a <span style="background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">RIGHT SINGLE QUOTATION MARK to end speech begun with U+2018 LEFT SINGLE QUOTATION MARK.<br></span>We have just encountered this use in Beta module <b>StatResGNT</b> which contains sections of text marked with both DOUBLE and SINGLE QUOTATION marks.<br>
<br>I propose therefore that we perform an <u>experiment</u>, by implementing my suggestion first in module <b>TischMorph</b>, last updated 2012-01-09.</div><div style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;" class="gmail_quote">This has 1218 instances of <span style="background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">U+2019 and in each case, it's used <b><i>contrarily</i></b> as a <b>Greek Diacritic.</b></span></div><div style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;" class="gmail_quote"><b><br></b>
Here's a counted list of the Greek letters that are followed by a U+2019.</div><blockquote style="padding-left: 10px; border-left-width: 3px; border-left-style: solid; border-left-color: rgb(200, 200, 200);"><div style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13.5pt; color: rgb(102, 102, 102);" class="gmail_quote"><span style="line-height: normal;">0031 δ’</span></div><div style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13.5pt; color: rgb(102, 102, 102);" class="gmail_quote"><span style="line-height: normal;">0109 θ’</span></div><div style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13.5pt; color: rgb(102, 102, 102);" class="gmail_quote"><span style="line-height: normal;">0232 τ’</span></div><div style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13.5pt; color: rgb(102, 102, 102);" class="gmail_quote"><span style="line-height: normal;">0287 π’</span></div><div style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13.5pt; color: rgb(102, 102, 102);" class="gmail_quote"><span style="line-height: normal;">0221 λ’</span></div><div style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13.5pt; color: rgb(102, 102, 102);" class="gmail_quote"><span style="line-height: normal;">0135 φ’</span></div><div style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13.5pt; color: rgb(102, 102, 102);" class="gmail_quote"><span style="line-height: normal;">0059 ρ’</span></div><div style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13.5pt; color: rgb(102, 102, 102);" class="gmail_quote"><span style="line-height: normal;">0144 ι’</span></div></blockquote><div style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;" class="gmail_quote" dir="ltr"><br></div><div style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;" class="gmail_quote">This is how they would look if the proposed replacements were made:</div><blockquote style="padding-left: 10px; border-left-width: 3px; border-left-style: solid; border-left-color: rgb(200, 200, 200);"><div style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13.5pt; color: rgb(102, 102, 102);" class="gmail_quote"><span style="line-height: normal;">0031 δ̕</span></div><div style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13.5pt; color: rgb(102, 102, 102);" class="gmail_quote"><span style="line-height: normal;">0109 θ̕</span></div><div style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13.5pt; color: rgb(102, 102, 102);" class="gmail_quote"><span style="line-height: normal;">0232 τ̕</span></div><div style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13.5pt; color: rgb(102, 102, 102);" class="gmail_quote"><span style="line-height: normal;">0287 π̕</span></div><div style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13.5pt; color: rgb(102, 102, 102);" class="gmail_quote"><span style="line-height: normal;">0221 λ̕</span></div><div style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13.5pt; color: rgb(102, 102, 102);" class="gmail_quote"><span style="line-height: normal;">0135 φ̕</span></div><div style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13.5pt; color: rgb(102, 102, 102);" class="gmail_quote"><span style="line-height: normal;">0059 ρ̕</span></div><div style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13.5pt; color: rgb(102, 102, 102);" class="gmail_quote"><span style="line-height: normal;">0144 ι̕</span></div></blockquote><div style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;" class="gmail_quote"><br>
</div><div style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;" class="gmail_quote">NB. The upstream source for this module is no longer found at <a rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener" href="http://morphgnt.org/" target="_blank">http://morphgnt.org/</a></div><div style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;" class="gmail_quote">The URL now just displays a <b>404</b> message saying "There isn't a GitHub Pages site here."</div><div style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;" class="gmail_quote">If we can no longer find where it may have moved, we might have to use a "round trip" of <b>mod2imp</b> and <b>imp2vs</b> to rebuild the module with my suggested change.</div><div style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;" class="gmail_quote" dir="ltr"><br></div><div style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;" class="gmail_quote">If my suggestion has any merit, we should also first discuss it with <b>NT scholars</b> such as our friends at <b>STEP Bible</b> and their friends at <b>Tyndale House</b>.</div><div style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;" class="gmail_quote" dir="ltr"><br></div><div style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;" class="gmail_quote">
Best regards,<br><br>David
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