<html><head><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body dir="auto"><div><br></div><div>- There is no "exclusive" agreement. (You can access the ESV from BibleGateway, for example.)</div><div>- If we are challenged by a copyright holder about our rights to distribute their content, we then take that up with them. (This happened with the ESV a few years ago, when the new guy in charge of that sort of stuff at Crossway didn't know about our agreement. This specifically affected our distribution via iOS, and we agreed to manually disable the ability to download the ESV on iOS until it was sorted out. The copyright holder challenged us. We cleared it up with them.)</div><div>- If you decide that you don't trust that CrossWire has an appropriate agreement with the copyright holders, you then MUST go with what you DO know, which is to look at the rights you have from the copyright holder yourself. (So, this links with those URLs you linked to a few days ago from the copyright holder's websites, the generic licences. If you think CrossWire is lying and has no rights, you then cannot legally use any of the "copyrighted" material you can get from <a href="http://crosswire.org">crosswire.org</a>)</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>You seem to have 2 choices. Either accept that what Troy has said before, and that the above is true, or walk away from here and look for other projects to be involved with.</div><div>The material that is copyrighted that is available from <a href="http://crosswire.org">crosswire.org</a> is not available for you to redistribute. As you believe that CrossWire has stolen all that material, it would be highly illegal for you to further redistribute that stolen material.</div><div><br></div><div>[of course, that material is NOT stolen, and many people have spent hours and days and weeks and years slowly negotiating the rights to distribute it from <a href="http://crosswire.org">crosswire.org</a> for individuals to use for personal use only]</div><div><br></div><div>I'm done. Take the above or leave it. Accept what you have been told or decide CrossWire is an organisation of thieves. [It's not.] Either way, there is nothing to say that you have the right to further distribute modules.</div><div><br></div><div>I'm going to be sad to see you go, but I believe that is the decision you are leaning towards, as you do not trust Troy. :(</div><div><br>On 12/01/2013, at 11:08, Andrew Thule <<a href="mailto:thulester@gmail.com">thulester@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div>Nic, no I didn't miss the point.<div><br></div><div>You are claiming this privelge is exclusive. If so, the terms of this agreement must be both registered and public. Anyone can claim anything they want about what they are able to do, and what others are not able to do, but these claims are only true if the terms of the law is met.<br>
<br>As long as Crosswire is engaged in the public non-commercial distribution of modules, and refused to prove its right to do this is exclusive, it should accept is has no ability to control them once<span></span> they've left Crosswire.</div>
<div><br></div><div>~A<br><br>On Friday, January 11, 2013, Nic Carter wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="auto"><div>Hi Andrew,</div><div>
<br></div><div>You completely miss the point!</div><div><br></div><div>CrossWire has the right to distribute certain modules. In order to satisfy our legal agreement with the copyright holders we can can only distribute from "CrossWire". We do not own the copyright, we have to abide by the same rules as anyone else. We are simply in the awesome position of having been granted permission.</div>
<div><br></div><div>Also, when I say "we", I am meaning CrossWire. However, even though I am a volunteer as part of CrossWire, that does not give me the right to distribute anything. Distribution has to be simply by CrossWire and the most proper way to satisfy those legal agreements is to distribute from an official CrossWire domain so as to strive the hardest to remain above board. :)</div>
<div><br></div><div>I am now lead to believe that what certain other people have said here is correct and that you do not understand any of this legal mumbo jumbo at all, and hence I think you should cease trying to educate others and instead simply cede to Troy and if you wish to help with this project, follow his lead, asking him what he wants of you.</div>
<div><br></div><div>Thank you.</div><div><br></div><div>Nic... :)<br><br>On 12/01/2013, at 10:40, Andrew Thule <<a href="javascript:_e({}, 'cvml', 'thulester@gmail.com');" target="_blank">thulester@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
<br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div>Ultimately, the issue is about licensing rights on modules, which appears to be a very touchy subject around here. I suspect this is so because without actual licenses, which are essentially legal agreements (I'm not talking about .conf files which are not legal agreements), its pretty much impossible to claims legal rights and restrictions exist without proof.<div>
<br></div><div>As people like to point out, Copyright resides with the Copyright owner. For a third party to 'claim' the right to distribute text they are not the Copyright owner of, explicit license had to have been given (a legally binding agreement). What this means for mirrors is this:</div>
<div><div><br><div>Anyone can run an FTP service.</div><div>Anyone can call the directories anything they want in said FTP service.</div><div>What people place in their FTP servers is where the controversy starts.</div><div>
<br></div><div>Others, (not me) have already pointed out that Crosswire doesn't (and can't) control modules once they leave Crosswire's repo. This means Crosswire, as the non-owner, has nothing to say about modules elsewhere. Crosswire tries to asserts legal right over some modules however. There are only two ways under copyright law, Crosswire can exercise rights over copyrighted work:</div>
<div><br></div><div>1. Direct Ownership. Para 106 of of US Copyright law says that the Copyright owner has exclusive rights over their wok, so Crosswire would have to prove it were the Copyright Owner; or</div><div>2. Transfer and Licensing of rights. The Owner can transfer rights through formal agreement specificaly expressing those rights (and ultimately granted through a written instrument, signed by the grantor). This is a license, or possibly exclusive license. Under US law, exclusive licenses must be recorded in the US Copyright office or exclusive license is not valid (Para 408)</div>
<div><br></div>If Crosswire has been exclusively license then, it may establish a rule only certain repositories may distribute modules, but the terms of this license (with the Copyright owner) are not secret (and indeed a matter of public record).</div>
<div>If Crosswire has not been exclusively licensed however, Crosswire has no legal right to prohibit others from distributing modules it freely distributes in a non-commercial manner (however much it rants and maligns others).</div>
<div><br></div><div dir="ltr">That means for there to be a *.<a href="http://crosswire.org" target="_blank">crosswire.org</a> 'rule' Crosswire's exclusive license must be registered and public, or it lacks authority to assert rights over text it doesn't own. P<span>eople should not get upset when this rule is not followed then.<span></span></span></div>
<div dir="ltr"><span><br></span></div><div>(Don't shoot the messenger because you don't like the law)</div>
<div><br></div><div>~A</div><div><br><div>On Thursday, January 10, 2013, David Blue wrote:<br><blockquote style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div><div>Based on the*.<a href="http://crosswire.org" target="_blank">crosswire.org</a> rule I would say the best option when and if mirrors are needed is to have some sort of round robin dns that picks a mirror from an internal list the way <a href="http://microsoft.com" target="_blank">microsoft.com</a> or my Linux distro does <a href="http://download.opensuse.org" target="_blank">download.opensuse.org</a> for it's package repos. Sorry for the top post'<br>
<br><div>Nic Carter <<a>niccarter@mac.com</a>> wrote:<blockquote style="margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<pre style="white-space:pre-wrap;word-wrap:break-word;font-family:sans-serif;margin-top:0px"><br>Sent from my phone, hence this email may be short...<br><br>On 08/01/2013, at 8:51, Andrew Thule <<a>thulester@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
<br><br><blockquote style="margin:0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid #729fcf;padding-left:1ex">As long as Crosswire has policies in place govererning official mirrors there should no no worries mirrors are out of sync, in which case preferred mirror selection can be left to the user, and indeed mirror checking behaviour configurable.</blockquote>
<br>Yup, policy is no mirrors at this point in time.<br>It is thought that there _may_ be room in the future for some, but these will be done from a *.<a href="http://crosswire.org" target="_blank">crosswire.org</a> domain so as to satisfy copyright requirements.<br>
<br>Easy :)<br><br>Thanks for your thoughts & I'm glad we can now put this discussion to rest. :)<br><br><hr><br>sword-devel mailing list: <a>sword-devel@crosswire.org</a><br>
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