[sword-devel] I give up
Michael H
cmahte at gmail.com
Wed May 13 15:30:02 MST 2020
On Ubuntu, I've gone to PPA version for LibreOffice... which is a newer
version than was released under Ubuntu 18 LTS. However, it's not as easy to
go to PPA for sword apps because there are more interactions with
dependencies between the sword engine, gnome, etc.
Back in 2002 to 04 time frame: I was trying to build for palmOS, and ran
into this dependencies won't line up, i need multiple minor revisions of
the same thing to make everything work. I and ended up getting somebody to
"staticly compile" apps for me on the linux side, so my work on palm
wouldn't be falling into dependency gap. It increases the size of the
package, but no longer depends on anything outside the package. In today's
environment of massive amounts of RAM and disk space, i don't see why any
'application' on linux doesn't do this... pulling in the libraries and
having an extra copy of them makes them far more stable, and it makes them
run quicker. It does consume more memory and disk space, but the days when
there was any risk of running out of ram or disk space on desktops are into
double digits gone by.
On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 4:39 PM Greg Hellings <greg.hellings at gmail.com>
wrote:
>
>
> On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 4:28 PM Tom Sullivan <info at beforgiven.info> wrote:
>
>> Greg:
>>
>> The repositories do not contain the latest versions. For example, the
>> Debian Buster repository presents Xiphos 4.1, not the latest 4.2.
>>
>
> 1) This is the benefit and curse of Debian. It refuses to let new versions
> of packages in that are not bugfix and ONLY bugfix. Nothing with new
> features at all is allowed into a stable/released version of Debian. It's a
> benefit to users who need the stability (read: server administrators and
> people who develop software for running on those stable versions of Debian)
> but it's a terrible experience for end users. If you're using Debian
> anything (other than sid, their testing release) for an end-user desktop,
> then you're going to have a bad experience.
>
> 2) This is, again, an issue with the distro, and not with Crosswire or
> Xiphos. There is nothing we can do to affect upstream's release cadence and
> rules. Now, if the Xiphos project had enough developer manpower to maintain
> patches to the 4.1 series as well as continue development towards 4.2, then
> maybe we'd be able to get a 4.1.1 and 4.1.2 into old Debian versions.
> That's what large projects do (like Debian itself), but we just don't have
> the developer bandwidth to maintain multiple branches on any of our
> software. But none of our software is intended for server, long-lived
> boxes, either. It's all end user focused stuff.
>
>
>> That is how I ended up reporting bugs that had been fixed. It is a wide
>> problem; I mention Xiphos, not as a bad example, but because I happened
>> to remember the version numbers.
>>
>
> The same would be true of Sword. 1.8.1 is not just a bugfix release of the
> 1.8 series. It introduced some minor new functionality so, technically, it
> would not have been permitted into the Debian repository if anyone was
> checking closely. This is just how we handle our software, again, because
> we lack the manpower to keep multiple development streams flowing.
>
> I would, again, submit that your issue is actually with your chosen
> distribution. Its documentation appears to be inadequate, and it's lulled
> you into using a distribution that's not targeting your use case. You might
> try running Fedora (or Ubuntu and not staying on LTS versions) which have
> much more generous update policies. I can tell you, for instance, that
> Xiphos compiles very nicely on current Fedora versions with a few very
> simple commands. I happen to know this because I maintain both our Xiphos
> CI process and the packages in the repositories for Xiphos. Now, I haven't
> updated the packages to 4.2.1 yet, for Xiphos, because I was busy helping
> with the CI and the release of 4.2.1, but due to the CI I know that
> compiling for Fedora 32 will be a breeze.
>
> Compiling for Ubuntu is a little more of a challenge, because of the
> missing dependencies, but Caleb is working on create a dedicated repository
> on Ubuntu's infrastructure just for that. And Caleb, myself, Dom, and Karl
> are all working to resolve those issues so that, in the future, a 4.3 or
> 4.4 will be able to make it back into the Debian repos and eventually into
> the Ubuntu "universe" repositories.
>
> So maybe give us a shot, still, on a distro that's meant for you? :)
>
> --Greg
>
>>
>> Tom
>>
>> Tom Sullivan
>> info at BeForgiven.INFO
>> FAX: 815-301-2835
>> ---------------------
>>
>> On 5/13/20 5:21 PM, Greg Hellings wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> > On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 3:57 PM Tom Sullivan <info at beforgiven.info
>> > <mailto:info at beforgiven.info>> wrote:
>> >
>> > Y'all:
>> >
>> > First, I recognize that as a writer and long retired developer and
>> > engineer (and thus obsolete) that in terms of technical issues, I am
>> > way
>> > out of my league with all you C++ programmers and experts.
>> >
>> > Second, I want to thank all of you for your hard work. Compared to
>> what
>> > is available for Windows and Mac users, available Bible software and
>> > tools are sparse. You work as volunteers and on a shoestring budget.
>> > Very many thanks. Without your work, I would be back to books and
>> paper
>> > without being able to search, compare versions, etc., with such
>> ease.
>> > Linux users are definitely an under served people group and you
>> fill a
>> > big need.
>> >
>> > Some of you may remember my SwordHammer project. Frankly, it has
>> > crashed
>> > and burned. Due to an architecture decision that was not the best,
>> it
>> > became unwieldy. And now, due to changes in my life, I cannot
>> continue,
>> > though I had started on a new architecture. This has two
>> consequences:
>> > 1. There probably is not any longer reason to continue on this list
>> > much
>> > longer.
>> > 2. I got an appreciation for the huge problem caused by incompatible
>> > Linux distros. For example, I did not know that Ubuntu users were
>> > limited to sudo, instead of being able to run as root.
>> >
>> > Many of my previous interactions with this list have been caused by
>> my
>> > use of obsolete versions. I cannot help it. I seem only able to
>> install
>> > packages from the Debian repository (or download a *.deb suitable
>> for
>> > Debian Buster and install). I recently tried to compile and install
>> > Sword (which worked), BibleTime (which crashed), and Xiphos (which I
>> > was
>> > not able to compile by various tries.) There are errors in the docs,
>> > and
>> > discrepancies between docs, and who knows what.) I failed. So I am
>> > stuck, and that is not mainly your fault. The problem is that there
>> is
>> > no Linux-wide packaging or installation system. It may or may not be
>> > technically feasible, I don't know). When things go wrong, I often
>> have
>> > no idea how to fix them.
>> >
>> >
>> > You really shouldn't have to download any files. You should only have
>> to
>> > run "sudo apt update && sudo apt install bibletime". Or, if you want to
>> > compile BibleTime from source but use the packaged Sword library, "sudo
>> > apt install libsword-dev". Currently, Xiphos is not compatible with
>> > Debian/Ubuntu because it depends on ancient libraries that are not
>> > available in those distributions anymore. However, packagers for those
>> > distros, until recently, were maintaining a heavily patched version of
>> > Xiphos that was avilable in their repositories. All that was needed was
>> > "sudo apt install xiphos". No downloading or building or manually
>> > finding dependencies.
>> >
>> >
>> > So I have two suggestions here, but let me start with an analogy.
>> > When I
>> > have to buy a new vehicle, my concern is not if the seat is nice and
>> > the
>> > radio works and the vanity light works. I want it to safely take me
>> > where I want to go. If there is a rip in the seat or dents in the
>> body
>> > or some rust or something, I can live with that. So, I am willing to
>> > live with what is in the repositories and not waste everybody else's
>> > time with bug reports. I apologize for doing that. It was not
>> > intentional, but that is what happened.
>> >
>> > Suggestion 1: Clean up documentation. Prime exhibit: May Crosswire
>> page
>> > refers to Sword 1.8.0 with link for months with no mention of 1.8.1.
>> >
>> >
>> > I'm not sure where you're looking. This is the download page for Sword
>> > source http://crosswire.org/sword/develop/index.jsp and it mentions
>> > 1.8.1 without incident.
>> >
>> >
>> > Suggestion 2: For the more popular distros, provide ready-to-go
>> > packages, .deb files (or equivalent, such as .rpm) for installs and
>> > updates, even if they do not hit the repositories until later. This
>> > will
>> > get users access who are not experts. In my opinion, for what it is
>> > worth, this is at least as important as new features. Also allow
>> users
>> > an option to automatically check for updates and tell where to get a
>> > new
>> > package. I understand that this takes time and work. I would rather
>> get
>> > some new features and bug fixes, and be able to get and use them,
>> than
>> > new features I will never see because I can't compile or something.
>> I
>> > rather think that others are also in my position as well.
>> >
>> >
>> > This is usually a Very Bad Idea for upstream projects. Every distro has
>> > its own quirks, foibles, and differences. For instance, gtkhtml is
>> still
>> > avilable on Fedora but not on Ubuntu or Debian. As such, Xiphos can be
>> > compiled rather readily on Fedora but not on Debian/Ubuntu without
>> heavy
>> > patching of the source to disable the editor features. Those are
>> details
>> > already managed by the packagers of those distributions and are quite a
>> > nightmare for every upstream project to keep track of. Nor is it easy
>> to
>> > keep separate the very tiny tweaks that make up the Debian -> Ubuntu ->
>> > Mint/Pop/etc food chain where downstream distributions consume upstream
>> > packages in some manner. Providing a build is not something upstream
>> > projects like Sword ought to do.
>> >
>> > Should our docs be updated so that they work in those distros, where
>> > possible? Yes. But it sounds like most of your difficulty was with the
>> > package manager on the Debian (or Ubuntu?) system you were using. For
>> an
>> > end user, you should have just "sudo apt install <my pacage>" and been
>> > able to get along without trouble. The fact you weren't was a failure
>> on
>> > the part of the distribution. Not on Sword, Crosswire, BibleTime, or
>> > Xiphos. I have no idea what your ultimate goal is, though, so I can't
>> > give you more particular details than that.
>> >
>> > --Greg
>> >
>> >
>> > For what it is worth, and sorry it is so long. Sorry again for
>> wasting
>> > all your time in the past. God bless you and keep up all the good
>> work.
>> > It is not perfect, but it is definitely good and I use your stuff
>> many
>> > hours a week and every day.
>> >
>> > Sincerely,
>> > Tom Sullivan
>> >
>> > --
>> > Tom Sullivan
>> > info at BeForgiven.INFO
>> > FAX: 815-301-2835
>> > ---------------------
>> >
>> >
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