[sword-devel] NASB Psalm titles

[Fr Cyrille]

Hi Tom,
It's very easy to create a deb with the xiphos sources. Just see the
"Generating DEB Packages" in the install.md. Then you'll have the last
release.

Le 08/05/2020 à 19:59, Tom Sullivan a écrit :
> Y'all:
>
> Thank you all for your interactions. I honestly have been trying to
> help, not just waste everybody's time. But I am not a C++ programmer.
> I know enough Python to be dangerous. I can do some occasional
> maintenance on C. All the languages I once knew are obsolete or
> specific to Microsoft, whom I finally just had to divorce with extreme
> disgust. I am still learning, but slowly.
>
> Thus, I hope I can be extended some charity here as a "weaker brother"
> with respect to the above and below remarks.
>
> Documentation is a weak point in Linux generally, and has been a
> problem for me and others in spades with Crosswire related stuff. One
> solution for some of the versions issue would be to:
> 1. Document somewhere what are the latest versions and how to find out
> one's current version.
> 2. Programs should have an option to check for a newer version each
> time they are started and report new versions to the user.
> 2. For main distros, even though it may not be possible to get
> something in the official repository, provide a package somewhere to
> download. For example, for Debian, a *.deb.
> 3. Provide scripts that will work and allow one to compile the latest
> version without requiring the user to know a lot. Even a list of
> commands that can be copied and pasted one by one would be better than
> nothing.
>
> The reference to [NASB] ... was for Karl.
>
> How do I find out the version of Sword from the command line without
> using osis2mod?
>
> And, I thought Diatheke came with Sword? When Sword was updated awhile
> back was it not updated also?
>
> Re: your using:
> sword/examples/cmdline/lookup.cpp
> You can do that. I can't. I do not know C++. You guys are all way
> above me technically. When something goes wrong, I generally have no
> idea how to fix it.
>
> Sorry for the trouble. Perhaps some of my suggestions above will make
> things easier for all of us. For example, if my Diatheke is obsolete,
> I have no way of knowing and still do not know if it is obsolete or not.
>
> Tom Sullivan
> info at BeForgiven.INFO
> FAX: 815-301-2835
> ---------------------
> Great News!
> God created you, owns you and gave you commands to obey.
> You have disobeyed God - as your conscience very well attests to you.
> God's holiness and justice compel Him to punish you in Hell.
> Jesus Christ became Man, was crucified, buried and rose from the dead
> as a substitute for all who trust in Him, redeeming them from Hell.
> If you repent (turn from your sin) and believe (trust) in Jesus Christ,
> you will go to Heaven. Otherwise you will go to Hell.
> Warning! Good works are a result, not cause, of saving trust.
> More info is at www.esig.beforgiven.info
> Do you believe this? Copy this signature into your email program
> and use the Internet to spread the Great News every time you email.
>
> On 5/8/20 1:19 PM, Troy A. Griffitts wrote:
>> So, a few things here.
>>
>> On 5/8/20 9:57 AM, Tom Sullivan wrote:
>>> Troy, Karl:
>>>
>>> (Karl:
>>> [NASB]
>>> Heading=On)
>>
>> I have no idea what you are showing here.  This looks like a .conf
>> setting.  Xiphos may pay attention to Heading=On, but this doesn't mean
>> anything to SWORD.
>>
>>
>>> I am using Debian Buster (10) (stable). This is the current stable
>>> version of Debian and is the one generally recommended. It is the
>>> version those of us who have work to do use, rather than mess with a
>>> buggy OS. (There is a more recent Debian version generally titled
>>> testing, but it is not as reliable.)
>>>
>>> I have mentioned my versions before. Others can comment on their
>>> current status:
>>>
>>> Diatheke: 4.7
>>> Xiphos: 4.1.0
>>> Sword (from osis2mod): 3431 (This should be current as I compiled for
>>> the new version when it came out earlier.)
>>
>> So, you are not reporting the version of SWORD you are using if you are
>> getting that information from osis2mod.  osis2mod shows the last edited
>> revision of the osis2mod utility.  That tools hasn't been updated since
>> 2016, so it will report that revision.  SWORD is currently at 3725
>>
>>
>>> I understand that there is a new version of Xiphos, but Xiphos is not
>>> the only program not showing Psalm titles. (I hope to see a Debian
>>> package for Xiphos soon, if not when I get a chance, I can try to
>>> compile, but that always has difficulties.)
>>>
>>> I repeat here the results from Diatheke:
>>> (I was given to understand that this is the gold standard for seeing
>>> if the problem is in the module or Sword vs. front-ends.)
>>>
>> No.  diatheke is certainly not the gold standard for seeing anything.
>> Diatheke has bugs of its own.  I personally use
>> sword/examples/cmdline/lookup.cpp to check all info about what SWORD
>> output from a module entry to a frontend for a particular format.
>> Diatheke is not a bad tool to use, but it is certainly not considered
>> any kind of standard.  I have no idea why it is, for example, showing
>> headings AFTER verse 1.  This is certainly a bug and has likely been
>> fixed since the version you are using.
>>
>> Having said that, it works for me:
>>
>> [scribe at localhost diatheke]$ ./diatheke  -b NASB -f plain -k ps 5.1
>>   For the choir director; for flute accompaniment. A Psalm of David.
>>   Psalms 5:1:
>> Give ear to my words, O LORD, Consider my groaning.
>> (NASB)
>>
>> Karl has said that he can see the NASB Psalm titles fine in his instance
>> of Xiphos.
>>
>> My guess is that the NASB uses the latest version of osis2mod and
>> SWORD-supported markup and what you have on your system does not support
>> entirely all of this markup.
>>
>> I am happy to hear of problems, but I am not sure what we can do to fix
>> things if you are reporting problems with old version which we can't
>> reproduce in the latest versions.
>>
>> I am sad we have old versions out there in distributions.
>>
>> Troy
>>
>>
>>> $ diatheke -b ESV2011 -f plain -k ps 5.1-2
>>> Psalms 5:1:  Give ear to my words, O Lord;
>>> consider my groaning.
>>>
>>>    To the choirmaster: for the flutes. A Psalm of David.
>>>    Psalms 5:2: Give attention to the sound of my cry,
>>> my King and my God,
>>> for to you do I pray.
>>>
>>> (ESV2011)
>>> $ diatheke -b KJV -f plain -k ps 5.1-2
>>> Psalms 5:1: Give ear to my words, O LORD, consider my meditation.
>>> To the chief Musician upon Nehiloth, A Psalm of David.
>>> Psalms 5:2: Hearken unto the voice of my cry, my King, and my God: for
>>> unto thee will I pray.
>>> (KJV)
>>> $ diatheke -b NASB -f plain -k ps 5.1-2
>>> Psalms 5:1:
>>> Give ear to my words, O LORD, Consider my groaning.
>>>    Psalms 5:2:
>>> Heed the sound of my cry for help, my King and my God, For to You I
>>> pray.
>>> (NASB)
>>>
>>> And I repeat here the *differences* in how front ends handle things:
>>> BibleDesktop displays the canonical title in a different color than
>>> the human title. This does not mean that I accuse any front-ends
>>> per-se.
>>>
>>> BibleTime displays both the human and canonical the same.
>>>
>>> Xiphos 4.1.0 displays titles for ESV2011, not NASB
>>>
>>> Tom Sullivan
>>> info at BeForgiven.INFO
>>> FAX: 815-301-2835
>>> ---------------------
>>> Great News!
>>> God created you, owns you and gave you commands to obey.
>>> You have disobeyed God - as your conscience very well attests to you.
>>> God's holiness and justice compel Him to punish you in Hell.
>>> Jesus Christ became Man, was crucified, buried and rose from the dead
>>> as a substitute for all who trust in Him, redeeming them from Hell.
>>> If you repent (turn from your sin) and believe (trust) in Jesus Christ,
>>> you will go to Heaven. Otherwise you will go to Hell.
>>> Warning! Good works are a result, not cause, of saving trust.
>>> More info is at www.esig.beforgiven.info
>>> Do you believe this? Copy this signature into your email program
>>> and use the Internet to spread the Great News every time you email.
>>>
>>> On 5/8/20 12:30 PM, Troy A. Griffitts wrote:
>>>> Good morning!
>>>>
>>>> So, lots of conversation.  I've read it all and can't determine if
>>>> there
>>>> is still a problem to be fixed.
>>>>
>>>> First, it sounds like Tom is using an old version of software.  Please
>>>> be sure you are using the latest version of software before pursuing
>>>> problems.  It sounds like Karl is saying that the latest version of
>>>> Xiphos works.  Is this correct?
>>>>
>>>> SWORD has always attempted to leave canonical titles in the display,
>>>> even if headings are turned off.  We may have had bugs over the years
>>>> causing this to not worked, but I hope it hasn't been so often as to
>>>> make anyone think this is how SWORD has "always" worked.  I confirm
>>>> that
>>>> asking for Psalm 5.1 without headings turned on still returns the
>>>> canonical title (and correctly strips out the non-canonical title)
>>>> there.
>>>>
>>>> "canonical" in OSIS for Bibles does indeed mean "what was
>>>> originally in
>>>> the Bible."  It does not not mean "was was originally in the
>>>> NASB."  It
>>>> is meant as a utility to differentiate editorial material from the
>>>> original work (=Bible; not NASB).  OSIS canonical when encoding a
>>>> Bible
>>>> mean what we all think canonical means.  It is a statement about what
>>>> this edition claims is there in the original "Bible", however that
>>>> edition defines the term "Bible".
>>>>
>>>> SWORD /should/ mark all canonical titles appropriately so they can be
>>>> rendered differently, if that is the desire.  Checking the NASB, they
>>>> are rendered appropriately in an element with:
>>>>
>>>> class="title psalm canonical"
>>>>
>>>> So, is there any issue we need to address?
>>>>
>>>> Troy
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 5/8/20 8:42 AM, Tom Sullivan wrote:
>>>>> My reference to verse numbers was only to show that others also
>>>>> considered the Psalm titles to be canonical.
>>>>>
>>>>> Tom Sullivan
>>>>> info at BeForgiven.INFO
>>>>> FAX: 815-301-2835
>>>>> ---------------------
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 5/8/20 11:01 AM, David Haslam wrote:
>>>>>> The original Hebrew text had no “verse numbers”.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It’s anachronistic to assert that it did.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chapters_and_verses_of_the_Bible
>>>>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chapters_and_verses_of_the_Bible?wprov=sfti1>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Modern printed editions of the MT have verse numbers “retrofitted”
>>>>>> simply for ease of use.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The Wikipedia article on Psalms is also instructive.
>>>>>> How Psalms are numbered and versified is quite a complex matter.
>>>>>> It’s just one of the factors we have to take account of under
>>>>>> Alternative Versification.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> David
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sent from ProtonMail Mobile
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Fri, May 8, 2020 at 15:49, Tom Sullivan <info at beforgiven.info
>>>>>> <mailto:info at beforgiven.info>> wrote:
>>>>>>> Y'all:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> My Biblia Hebraica treats Psalm titles as the first verse,
>>>>>>> indicating
>>>>>>> biblical canonacity and in line with Hebrew versification.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Note the following from OSIS doc, OSIS.pdf:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Appendix B.2.10 titles
>>>>>>> The type attribute on the title element is used to allow special
>>>>>>> rendering of particular titles, as well as
>>>>>>> searching for particular types of titles in the text.identify the
>>>>>>> type
>>>>>>> of note that appears in the text. Note that
>>>>>>> the values for the type attribute must be entered exactly as
>>>>>>> shown, all
>>>>>>> others must use the "x-" extension
>>>>>>> mechanism.
>>>>>>> If the user needs to record a type of title in the text that is not
>>>>>>> covered by these values, please use the OSIS
>>>>>>> attribute extension mechanism, "x-" in front of the name of your
>>>>>>> value
>>>>>>> for this attribute.
>>>>>>> .
>>>>>>> .
>>>>>>> psalm Use in the Psalms where what are considered "titles" in the
>>>>>>> English text are actually numbered
>>>>>>> as verses in the Hebrew text.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> David's point about canonicity is well taken, but we must consider:
>>>>>>> 1. Are we considering canonicity with respect to the NASB as
>>>>>>> published,
>>>>>>> OR
>>>>>>> 2. Are we considering canonicity with respect to how the NASB
>>>>>>> publishers
>>>>>>> saw it, that is that the Scripture text is cannonical. If we make
>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>> decision, we are simply electronically duplicating the paper
>>>>>>> publication.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> IMHO, 2. is the far better choice.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hope this helps, and thanks again to all.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Tom Sullivan
>>>>>>> info at BeForgiven.INFO
>>>>>>> FAX: 815-301-2835
>>>>>>> ---------------------
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 5/8/20 10:28 AM, David Haslam wrote:
>>>>>>>> One of the subtleties of OSIS is that the canonical attribute is
>>>>>>>> actually not a theological matter.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It’s easy to jump to the wrong conclusion that SWORD treats it as
>>>>>>> if it was.
>>>>>>>> It’s actually a technical attribute relating to the published
>>>>>>>> work it
>>>>>>>> represents in digital format.
>>>>>>>> So it can just as well appear in a Commentary module as a Bible
>>>>>>> module.
>>>>>>>> Anything with canonical=“false” should in theory at least be only
>>>>>>>> because the marked text was not in the original work.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Then the question becomes “What was the original work?”
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I will leave you to ponder....
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> David
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Sent from ProtonMail Mobile
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Fri, May 8, 2020 at 15:09, Karl Kleinpaste <karl at kleinpaste.org
>>>>>>>> <mailto:karl at kleinpaste.org>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 5/8/20 10:00 AM, Tom Sullivan wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> because Psalm titles are canonical, front-ends should put a
>>>>>>> difference
>>>>>>>>>> in display between them and human editor supplied titles.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> It's a fine idea, but it requires (in the xhtml case) the engine
>>>>>>> to wrap
>>>>>>>>> such titles in a suitable <span></span> so that a CSS control can
>>>>>>> put it
>>>>>>>>> to use, with appropriate new default render header content for
>>>>>>>>> it.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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