[sword-devel] NASB Psalm titles

Fri May 8 10:59:21 MST 2020

Y'all:

Thank you all for your interactions. I honestly have been trying to 
help, not just waste everybody's time. But I am not a C++ programmer. I 
know enough Python to be dangerous. I can do some occasional maintenance 
on C. All the languages I once knew are obsolete or specific to 
Microsoft, whom I finally just had to divorce with extreme disgust. I am 
still learning, but slowly.

Thus, I hope I can be extended some charity here as a "weaker brother" 
with respect to the above and below remarks.

Documentation is a weak point in Linux generally, and has been a problem 
for me and others in spades with Crosswire related stuff. One solution 
for some of the versions issue would be to:
1. Document somewhere what are the latest versions and how to find out 
one's current version.
2. Programs should have an option to check for a newer version each time 
they are started and report new versions to the user.
2. For main distros, even though it may not be possible to get something 
in the official repository, provide a package somewhere to download. For 
example, for Debian, a *.deb.
3. Provide scripts that will work and allow one to compile the latest 
version without requiring the user to know a lot. Even a list of 
commands that can be copied and pasted one by one would be better than 
nothing.

The reference to [NASB] ... was for Karl.

How do I find out the version of Sword from the command line without 
using osis2mod?

And, I thought Diatheke came with Sword? When Sword was updated awhile 
back was it not updated also?

Re: your using:
sword/examples/cmdline/lookup.cpp
You can do that. I can't. I do not know C++. You guys are all way above 
me technically. When something goes wrong, I generally have no idea how 
to fix it.

Sorry for the trouble. Perhaps some of my suggestions above will make 
things easier for all of us. For example, if my Diatheke is obsolete, I 
have no way of knowing and still do not know if it is obsolete or not.

Tom Sullivan
info at BeForgiven.INFO
FAX: 815-301-2835
---------------------
Great News!
God created you, owns you and gave you commands to obey.
You have disobeyed God - as your conscience very well attests to you.
God's holiness and justice compel Him to punish you in Hell.
Jesus Christ became Man, was crucified, buried and rose from the dead
as a substitute for all who trust in Him, redeeming them from Hell.
If you repent (turn from your sin) and believe (trust) in Jesus Christ,
you will go to Heaven. Otherwise you will go to Hell.
Warning! Good works are a result, not cause, of saving trust.
More info is at www.esig.beforgiven.info
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On 5/8/20 1:19 PM, Troy A. Griffitts wrote:
> So, a few things here.
> 
> On 5/8/20 9:57 AM, Tom Sullivan wrote:
>> Troy, Karl:
>>
>> (Karl:
>> [NASB]
>> Heading=On)
> 
> I have no idea what you are showing here.  This looks like a .conf
> setting.  Xiphos may pay attention to Heading=On, but this doesn't mean
> anything to SWORD.
> 
> 
>> I am using Debian Buster (10) (stable). This is the current stable
>> version of Debian and is the one generally recommended. It is the
>> version those of us who have work to do use, rather than mess with a
>> buggy OS. (There is a more recent Debian version generally titled
>> testing, but it is not as reliable.)
>>
>> I have mentioned my versions before. Others can comment on their
>> current status:
>>
>> Diatheke: 4.7
>> Xiphos: 4.1.0
>> Sword (from osis2mod): 3431 (This should be current as I compiled for
>> the new version when it came out earlier.)
> 
> So, you are not reporting the version of SWORD you are using if you are
> getting that information from osis2mod.  osis2mod shows the last edited
> revision of the osis2mod utility.  That tools hasn't been updated since
> 2016, so it will report that revision.  SWORD is currently at 3725
> 
> 
>> I understand that there is a new version of Xiphos, but Xiphos is not
>> the only program not showing Psalm titles. (I hope to see a Debian
>> package for Xiphos soon, if not when I get a chance, I can try to
>> compile, but that always has difficulties.)
>>
>> I repeat here the results from Diatheke:
>> (I was given to understand that this is the gold standard for seeing
>> if the problem is in the module or Sword vs. front-ends.)
>>
> No.  diatheke is certainly not the gold standard for seeing anything.
> Diatheke has bugs of its own.  I personally use
> sword/examples/cmdline/lookup.cpp to check all info about what SWORD
> output from a module entry to a frontend for a particular format.
> Diatheke is not a bad tool to use, but it is certainly not considered
> any kind of standard.  I have no idea why it is, for example, showing
> headings AFTER verse 1.  This is certainly a bug and has likely been
> fixed since the version you are using.
> 
> Having said that, it works for me:
> 
> [scribe at localhost diatheke]$ ./diatheke  -b NASB -f plain -k ps 5.1
>   For the choir director; for flute accompaniment. A Psalm of David.
>   Psalms 5:1:
> Give ear to my words, O LORD, Consider my groaning.
> (NASB)
> 
> Karl has said that he can see the NASB Psalm titles fine in his instance
> of Xiphos.
> 
> My guess is that the NASB uses the latest version of osis2mod and
> SWORD-supported markup and what you have on your system does not support
> entirely all of this markup.
> 
> I am happy to hear of problems, but I am not sure what we can do to fix
> things if you are reporting problems with old version which we can't
> reproduce in the latest versions.
> 
> I am sad we have old versions out there in distributions.
> 
> Troy
> 
> 
>> $ diatheke -b ESV2011 -f plain -k ps 5.1-2
>> Psalms 5:1:  Give ear to my words, O Lord;
>> consider my groaning.
>>
>>    To the choirmaster: for the flutes. A Psalm of David.
>>    Psalms 5:2: Give attention to the sound of my cry,
>> my King and my God,
>> for to you do I pray.
>>
>> (ESV2011)
>> $ diatheke -b KJV -f plain -k ps 5.1-2
>> Psalms 5:1: Give ear to my words, O LORD, consider my meditation.
>> To the chief Musician upon Nehiloth, A Psalm of David.
>> Psalms 5:2: Hearken unto the voice of my cry, my King, and my God: for
>> unto thee will I pray.
>> (KJV)
>> $ diatheke -b NASB -f plain -k ps 5.1-2
>> Psalms 5:1:
>> Give ear to my words, O LORD, Consider my groaning.
>>    Psalms 5:2:
>> Heed the sound of my cry for help, my King and my God, For to You I pray.
>> (NASB)
>>
>> And I repeat here the *differences* in how front ends handle things:
>> BibleDesktop displays the canonical title in a different color than
>> the human title. This does not mean that I accuse any front-ends per-se.
>>
>> BibleTime displays both the human and canonical the same.
>>
>> Xiphos 4.1.0 displays titles for ESV2011, not NASB
>>
>> Tom Sullivan
>> info at BeForgiven.INFO
>> FAX: 815-301-2835
>> ---------------------
>> Great News!
>> God created you, owns you and gave you commands to obey.
>> You have disobeyed God - as your conscience very well attests to you.
>> God's holiness and justice compel Him to punish you in Hell.
>> Jesus Christ became Man, was crucified, buried and rose from the dead
>> as a substitute for all who trust in Him, redeeming them from Hell.
>> If you repent (turn from your sin) and believe (trust) in Jesus Christ,
>> you will go to Heaven. Otherwise you will go to Hell.
>> Warning! Good works are a result, not cause, of saving trust.
>> More info is at www.esig.beforgiven.info
>> Do you believe this? Copy this signature into your email program
>> and use the Internet to spread the Great News every time you email.
>>
>> On 5/8/20 12:30 PM, Troy A. Griffitts wrote:
>>> Good morning!
>>>
>>> So, lots of conversation.  I've read it all and can't determine if there
>>> is still a problem to be fixed.
>>>
>>> First, it sounds like Tom is using an old version of software.  Please
>>> be sure you are using the latest version of software before pursuing
>>> problems.  It sounds like Karl is saying that the latest version of
>>> Xiphos works.  Is this correct?
>>>
>>> SWORD has always attempted to leave canonical titles in the display,
>>> even if headings are turned off.  We may have had bugs over the years
>>> causing this to not worked, but I hope it hasn't been so often as to
>>> make anyone think this is how SWORD has "always" worked.  I confirm that
>>> asking for Psalm 5.1 without headings turned on still returns the
>>> canonical title (and correctly strips out the non-canonical title)
>>> there.
>>>
>>> "canonical" in OSIS for Bibles does indeed mean "what was originally in
>>> the Bible."  It does not not mean "was was originally in the NASB."  It
>>> is meant as a utility to differentiate editorial material from the
>>> original work (=Bible; not NASB).  OSIS canonical when encoding a Bible
>>> mean what we all think canonical means.  It is a statement about what
>>> this edition claims is there in the original "Bible", however that
>>> edition defines the term "Bible".
>>>
>>> SWORD /should/ mark all canonical titles appropriately so they can be
>>> rendered differently, if that is the desire.  Checking the NASB, they
>>> are rendered appropriately in an element with:
>>>
>>> class="title psalm canonical"
>>>
>>> So, is there any issue we need to address?
>>>
>>> Troy
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 5/8/20 8:42 AM, Tom Sullivan wrote:
>>>> My reference to verse numbers was only to show that others also
>>>> considered the Psalm titles to be canonical.
>>>>
>>>> Tom Sullivan
>>>> info at BeForgiven.INFO
>>>> FAX: 815-301-2835
>>>> ---------------------
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 5/8/20 11:01 AM, David Haslam wrote:
>>>>> The original Hebrew text had no “verse numbers”.
>>>>>
>>>>> It’s anachronistic to assert that it did.
>>>>>
>>>>> See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chapters_and_verses_of_the_Bible
>>>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chapters_and_verses_of_the_Bible?wprov=sfti1>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Modern printed editions of the MT have verse numbers “retrofitted”
>>>>> simply for ease of use.
>>>>>
>>>>> The Wikipedia article on Psalms is also instructive.
>>>>> How Psalms are numbered and versified is quite a complex matter.
>>>>> It’s just one of the factors we have to take account of under
>>>>> Alternative Versification.
>>>>>
>>>>> David
>>>>>
>>>>> Sent from ProtonMail Mobile
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, May 8, 2020 at 15:49, Tom Sullivan <info at beforgiven.info
>>>>> <mailto:info at beforgiven.info>> wrote:
>>>>>> Y'all:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> My Biblia Hebraica treats Psalm titles as the first verse, indicating
>>>>>> biblical canonacity and in line with Hebrew versification.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Note the following from OSIS doc, OSIS.pdf:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Appendix B.2.10 titles
>>>>>> The type attribute on the title element is used to allow special
>>>>>> rendering of particular titles, as well as
>>>>>> searching for particular types of titles in the text.identify the
>>>>>> type
>>>>>> of note that appears in the text. Note that
>>>>>> the values for the type attribute must be entered exactly as
>>>>>> shown, all
>>>>>> others must use the "x-" extension
>>>>>> mechanism.
>>>>>> If the user needs to record a type of title in the text that is not
>>>>>> covered by these values, please use the OSIS
>>>>>> attribute extension mechanism, "x-" in front of the name of your
>>>>>> value
>>>>>> for this attribute.
>>>>>> .
>>>>>> .
>>>>>> psalm Use in the Psalms where what are considered "titles" in the
>>>>>> English text are actually numbered
>>>>>> as verses in the Hebrew text.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> David's point about canonicity is well taken, but we must consider:
>>>>>> 1. Are we considering canonicity with respect to the NASB as
>>>>>> published,
>>>>>> OR
>>>>>> 2. Are we considering canonicity with respect to how the NASB
>>>>>> publishers
>>>>>> saw it, that is that the Scripture text is cannonical. If we make
>>>>>> this
>>>>>> decision, we are simply electronically duplicating the paper
>>>>>> publication.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> IMHO, 2. is the far better choice.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hope this helps, and thanks again to all.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Tom Sullivan
>>>>>> info at BeForgiven.INFO
>>>>>> FAX: 815-301-2835
>>>>>> ---------------------
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 5/8/20 10:28 AM, David Haslam wrote:
>>>>>>> One of the subtleties of OSIS is that the canonical attribute is
>>>>>>> actually not a theological matter.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It’s easy to jump to the wrong conclusion that SWORD treats it as
>>>>>> if it was.
>>>>>>> It’s actually a technical attribute relating to the published
>>>>>>> work it
>>>>>>> represents in digital format.
>>>>>>> So it can just as well appear in a Commentary module as a Bible
>>>>>> module.
>>>>>>> Anything with canonical=“false” should in theory at least be only
>>>>>>> because the marked text was not in the original work.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Then the question becomes “What was the original work?”
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I will leave you to ponder....
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> David
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Sent from ProtonMail Mobile
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Fri, May 8, 2020 at 15:09, Karl Kleinpaste <karl at kleinpaste.org
>>>>>>> <mailto:karl at kleinpaste.org>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 5/8/20 10:00 AM, Tom Sullivan wrote:
>>>>>>>>> because Psalm titles are canonical, front-ends should put a
>>>>>> difference
>>>>>>>>> in display between them and human editor supplied titles.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It's a fine idea, but it requires (in the xhtml case) the engine
>>>>>> to wrap
>>>>>>>> such titles in a suitable <span></span> so that a CSS control can
>>>>>> put it
>>>>>>>> to use, with appropriate new default render header content for it.
>>>>>>>>
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