[sword-devel] NASB Psalm titles

Fri May 8 09:57:28 MST 2020

Troy, Karl:

(Karl:
[NASB]
Heading=On)

I am using Debian Buster (10) (stable). This is the current stable 
version of Debian and is the one generally recommended. It is the 
version those of us who have work to do use, rather than mess with a 
buggy OS. (There is a more recent Debian version generally titled 
testing, but it is not as reliable.)

I have mentioned my versions before. Others can comment on their current 
status:

Diatheke: 4.7
Xiphos: 4.1.0
Sword (from osis2mod): 3431 (This should be current as I compiled for 
the new version when it came out earlier.)

I understand that there is a new version of Xiphos, but Xiphos is not 
the only program not showing Psalm titles. (I hope to see a Debian 
package for Xiphos soon, if not when I get a chance, I can try to 
compile, but that always has difficulties.)

I repeat here the results from Diatheke:
(I was given to understand that this is the gold standard for seeing if 
the problem is in the module or Sword vs. front-ends.)

$ diatheke -b ESV2011 -f plain -k ps 5.1-2
Psalms 5:1:  Give ear to my words, O Lord;
consider my groaning.

   To the choirmaster: for the flutes. A Psalm of David.
   Psalms 5:2: Give attention to the sound of my cry,
my King and my God,
for to you do I pray.

(ESV2011)
$ diatheke -b KJV -f plain -k ps 5.1-2
Psalms 5:1: Give ear to my words, O LORD, consider my meditation.
To the chief Musician upon Nehiloth, A Psalm of David.
Psalms 5:2: Hearken unto the voice of my cry, my King, and my God: for 
unto thee will I pray.
(KJV)
$ diatheke -b NASB -f plain -k ps 5.1-2
Psalms 5:1:
Give ear to my words, O LORD, Consider my groaning.
   Psalms 5:2:
Heed the sound of my cry for help, my King and my God, For to You I pray.
(NASB)

And I repeat here the *differences* in how front ends handle things:
BibleDesktop displays the canonical title in a different color than the 
human title. This does not mean that I accuse any front-ends per-se.

BibleTime displays both the human and canonical the same.

Xiphos 4.1.0 displays titles for ESV2011, not NASB

Tom Sullivan
info at BeForgiven.INFO
FAX: 815-301-2835
---------------------
Great News!
God created you, owns you and gave you commands to obey.
You have disobeyed God - as your conscience very well attests to you.
God's holiness and justice compel Him to punish you in Hell.
Jesus Christ became Man, was crucified, buried and rose from the dead
as a substitute for all who trust in Him, redeeming them from Hell.
If you repent (turn from your sin) and believe (trust) in Jesus Christ,
you will go to Heaven. Otherwise you will go to Hell.
Warning! Good works are a result, not cause, of saving trust.
More info is at www.esig.beforgiven.info
Do you believe this? Copy this signature into your email program
and use the Internet to spread the Great News every time you email.

On 5/8/20 12:30 PM, Troy A. Griffitts wrote:
> Good morning!
> 
> So, lots of conversation.  I've read it all and can't determine if there
> is still a problem to be fixed.
> 
> First, it sounds like Tom is using an old version of software.  Please
> be sure you are using the latest version of software before pursuing
> problems.  It sounds like Karl is saying that the latest version of
> Xiphos works.  Is this correct?
> 
> SWORD has always attempted to leave canonical titles in the display,
> even if headings are turned off.  We may have had bugs over the years
> causing this to not worked, but I hope it hasn't been so often as to
> make anyone think this is how SWORD has "always" worked.  I confirm that
> asking for Psalm 5.1 without headings turned on still returns the
> canonical title (and correctly strips out the non-canonical title) there.
> 
> "canonical" in OSIS for Bibles does indeed mean "what was originally in
> the Bible."  It does not not mean "was was originally in the NASB."  It
> is meant as a utility to differentiate editorial material from the
> original work (=Bible; not NASB).  OSIS canonical when encoding a Bible
> mean what we all think canonical means.  It is a statement about what
> this edition claims is there in the original "Bible", however that
> edition defines the term "Bible".
> 
> SWORD /should/ mark all canonical titles appropriately so they can be
> rendered differently, if that is the desire.  Checking the NASB, they
> are rendered appropriately in an element with:
> 
> class="title psalm canonical"
> 
> So, is there any issue we need to address?
> 
> Troy
> 
> 
> 
> On 5/8/20 8:42 AM, Tom Sullivan wrote:
>> My reference to verse numbers was only to show that others also
>> considered the Psalm titles to be canonical.
>>
>> Tom Sullivan
>> info at BeForgiven.INFO
>> FAX: 815-301-2835
>> ---------------------
>>
>>
>> On 5/8/20 11:01 AM, David Haslam wrote:
>>> The original Hebrew text had no “verse numbers”.
>>>
>>> It’s anachronistic to assert that it did.
>>>
>>> See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chapters_and_verses_of_the_Bible
>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chapters_and_verses_of_the_Bible?wprov=sfti1>
>>>
>>> Modern printed editions of the MT have verse numbers “retrofitted”
>>> simply for ease of use.
>>>
>>> The Wikipedia article on Psalms is also instructive.
>>> How Psalms are numbered and versified is quite a complex matter.
>>> It’s just one of the factors we have to take account of under
>>> Alternative Versification.
>>>
>>> David
>>>
>>> Sent from ProtonMail Mobile
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, May 8, 2020 at 15:49, Tom Sullivan <info at beforgiven.info
>>> <mailto:info at beforgiven.info>> wrote:
>>>> Y'all:
>>>>
>>>> My Biblia Hebraica treats Psalm titles as the first verse, indicating
>>>> biblical canonacity and in line with Hebrew versification.
>>>>
>>>> Note the following from OSIS doc, OSIS.pdf:
>>>>
>>>> Appendix B.2.10 titles
>>>> The type attribute on the title element is used to allow special
>>>> rendering of particular titles, as well as
>>>> searching for particular types of titles in the text.identify the type
>>>> of note that appears in the text. Note that
>>>> the values for the type attribute must be entered exactly as shown, all
>>>> others must use the "x-" extension
>>>> mechanism.
>>>> If the user needs to record a type of title in the text that is not
>>>> covered by these values, please use the OSIS
>>>> attribute extension mechanism, "x-" in front of the name of your value
>>>> for this attribute.
>>>> .
>>>> .
>>>> psalm Use in the Psalms where what are considered "titles" in the
>>>> English text are actually numbered
>>>> as verses in the Hebrew text.
>>>>
>>>> David's point about canonicity is well taken, but we must consider:
>>>> 1. Are we considering canonicity with respect to the NASB as published,
>>>> OR
>>>> 2. Are we considering canonicity with respect to how the NASB
>>>> publishers
>>>> saw it, that is that the Scripture text is cannonical. If we make this
>>>> decision, we are simply electronically duplicating the paper
>>>> publication.
>>>>
>>>> IMHO, 2. is the far better choice.
>>>>
>>>> Hope this helps, and thanks again to all.
>>>>
>>>> Tom Sullivan
>>>> info at BeForgiven.INFO
>>>> FAX: 815-301-2835
>>>> ---------------------
>>>>
>>>> On 5/8/20 10:28 AM, David Haslam wrote:
>>>>> One of the subtleties of OSIS is that the canonical attribute is
>>>>> actually not a theological matter.
>>>>>
>>>>> It’s easy to jump to the wrong conclusion that SWORD treats it as
>>>> if it was.
>>>>> It’s actually a technical attribute relating to the published work it
>>>>> represents in digital format.
>>>>> So it can just as well appear in a Commentary module as a Bible
>>>> module.
>>>>> Anything with canonical=“false” should in theory at least be only
>>>>> because the marked text was not in the original work.
>>>>>
>>>>> Then the question becomes “What was the original work?”
>>>>>
>>>>> I will leave you to ponder....
>>>>>
>>>>> David
>>>>>
>>>>> Sent from ProtonMail Mobile
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, May 8, 2020 at 15:09, Karl Kleinpaste <karl at kleinpaste.org
>>>>> <mailto:karl at kleinpaste.org>> wrote:
>>>>>> On 5/8/20 10:00 AM, Tom Sullivan wrote:
>>>>>>> because Psalm titles are canonical, front-ends should put a
>>>> difference
>>>>>>> in display between them and human editor supplied titles.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It's a fine idea, but it requires (in the xhtml case) the engine
>>>> to wrap
>>>>>> such titles in a suitable <span></span> so that a CSS control can
>>>> put it
>>>>>> to use, with appropriate new default render header content for it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> sword-devel mailing list: sword-devel at crosswire.org
>>>>>> http://www.crosswire.org/mailman/listinfo/sword-devel
>>>>>> Instructions to unsubscribe/change your settings at above page
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> ______________________________________________________________________
>>>>> This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud
>>>> service.
>>>>> For more information please visit http://www.symanteccloud.com
>>>>>
>>>> ______________________________________________________________________
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> sword-devel mailing list: sword-devel at crosswire.org
>>>>> http://www.crosswire.org/mailman/listinfo/sword-devel
>>>>> Instructions to unsubscribe/change your settings at above page
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> sword-devel mailing list: sword-devel at crosswire.org
>>>> http://www.crosswire.org/mailman/listinfo/sword-devel
>>>> Instructions to unsubscribe/change your settings at above page
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ______________________________________________________________________
>>> This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud
>>> service.
>>> For more information please visit http://www.symanteccloud.com
>>> ______________________________________________________________________
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> sword-devel mailing list: sword-devel at crosswire.org
>>> http://www.crosswire.org/mailman/listinfo/sword-devel
>>> Instructions to unsubscribe/change your settings at above page
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> sword-devel mailing list: sword-devel at crosswire.org
>> http://www.crosswire.org/mailman/listinfo/sword-devel
>> Instructions to unsubscribe/change your settings at above page
> 
> _______________________________________________
> sword-devel mailing list: sword-devel at crosswire.org
> http://www.crosswire.org/mailman/listinfo/sword-devel
> Instructions to unsubscribe/change your settings at above page
> 
> ______________________________________________________________________
> This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service.
> For more information please visit http://www.symanteccloud.com
> ______________________________________________________________________
> 