[sword-devel] Dead Sea Scrolls copyright discussion

Andrew T. thulester at gmail.com
Mon Sep 10 06:54:27 MST 2018

Yes agree .. except in the case where something being published a rote fact
(facts cannot be copyrighted) .. and derivative works are their own case in
copyright law.  There's no dispute here.

On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 9:37 AM Peter Von Kaehne <refdoc at gmx.net> wrote:

> This matter has been discussed ad nauseam on our mailing list several
> years ago. Nothing has changed since.
> All written works including translations are copyrighted until the
> copyright expires.
> We need a permission by the copyright owner or the copyrioght owner
> licenses the text freely.
> If we do not have a permission, nor is there a free license available, we
> will not publish the module.
> Nothing complicated there. There are edge cases (publication in Ethiopia
> until recently or Iran until now being among them), this one is not one.
> The translations are safely within all limits of copyright expiry for the
> foreseeable future.  So, if you want the module published, you need to go
> and do the legwork. Speak with publishers and find agreement. Ask them to
> write a letter to Troy or me that they agree with a module being made of
> their text. Until then please cease debating the matter here and please
> cease offering "test modules" on our list.
> *Gesendet:* Montag, 10. September 2018 um 14:15 Uhr
> *Von:* "Andrew T." <thulester at gmail.com>
> *An:* "SWORD Developers' Collaboration Forum" <sword-devel at crosswire.org>
> *Betreff:* Re: [sword-devel] Dead Sea Scrolls copyright discussion
>  I welcome honest discussion about it, I thirst for honest discussion
> about it, more than I thirst for censorship at least.  I have looked into
> the copyright status of the DSS.  What you say is partially correct.  Each
> separate manuscript’s translations (as found in Discoveries in Judean
> Desert (DJD) or other sources) is held separately by DJD (or the other
> sources) according to the copyright expressed in each of the publication
> volumes.  This copyright has been upheld by the Supreme Court of Israel.
> If you want details, here's a listing on a scroll by scroll basis:
> https://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/scrolls_deadsea/inventory/cave01.htm
> For example, the Genesis scroll and the Isaiah scroll:
> *1Q1 (1QGen) 1QGenesis* *ß*
> D. Barthélemy, *Discoveries in the Judaean Desert I* (DJD I) (Oxford
> 1955), 49-50, pl. VIII.
> *1QIsa 1QIsaiaha **ß*
> M. Burrows (ed.) with the assistance of J. C. Trever and W. H. Brownlee, *The
> Dead Sea Scrolls of St. Mark's Monastery*, vol. I, pls. I-LIV.
> Now there are other translations of these scrolls, the above two are the
> most common and most widely used.  However, the textual content of the
> scrolls themselves in Hebrew or paleo-Hebrew, being rote fact, is not
> copyrightable.
> https://www.newmediarights.org/business_models/artist/are_facts_copyrighted
> Facts such as the “Boston Celtics lost to the Toronto Raptors with a score
> of 118-105” cannot be copyrighted, in Europe, N.America, or Russia.  Chess
> games, and their movements cannot be copyrighted (there are cases of
> copyright disputes over the publishing of chess games that have established
> this).  The writing on the scrolls is factual, not the product of modern
> scholarship.  So the text itself can be published, by anyone, for any
> reason.  This is the publishing of fact.
> If there is to be discussion about copyright and the DSS the case of
> publishing original language copies, There should be no concern.  There are
> publicly available copies of both manuscript images (can't use the images
> themselves though, need to transcribe from the images) and there are
> textual copies.
> From Peter's perspective, the issues surrounding the publication of the
> DSS in translation, because it involves copyright needs to sorted out in a
> way acceptable to this community.  I agree.  I would suggest taking exactly
> the same approach as  Martin G. Abegg Jr., Peter Flint, Eugene Ulrich in
> their book 'The Dead Sea Scrolls Bible: The Oldest Known Bible Translated
> for the First Time into English".  This book is a derivative work, and
> Abegg, Flint and Ulrich credit the translators and copyright holder's
> explicitly.
> Therefore for this community's concern to be addressed, what's needed is
> for Peter to understand on what basis Abegg, Flint, and Ulrich re-used the
> copyrighted translations of others; what the constraints of publishing
> derivative works are (possibly according to different jurisdictions); and
> forge a way ahead, or not according to best judgement and community
> discussion.
> As for me, so long as there is transparency in these discussions, respect,
> due consideration and no bullying, of course Ill live within the standards
> of the community.
> On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 9:06 AM Andrew T. <thulester at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Please, be patient and civil in this discussion, appreciating that
>> copyright and biblical texts are both important and that controversy
>> abounds when discussing both.  Everyone's perspective is welcomed here:
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