[sword-devel] Changes in strong numbers in Luke

Wed Aug 5 07:53:22 MST 2015

Tr-prsd.zip 

Cent from my fone so theer mite be tipos. ;)

> On Aug 5, 2015, at 7:52 AM, Vladimir Támara Patiño <vtamara at pasosdeJesus.org> wrote:
> 
> Thank you for the explanations
> 
> Yes I'm using mod2imp.  Thank you.
> 
> Regarding the file from which you generate the module, don't you think it would be good idea to put it in a version control system as you have done for sword
> https://crosswire.org/svn/sword/trunk/  ?
> 
> By the way at least one mistake in the strong concordance that I noticed in the current version of KJV is in Luke 3:24 that doesn't have the 3rd word:
> 
>> < 3:24 1-3588 2-3158 3-3588 4-3017 5-3588 6-3197 7-3588 8-2388 9-3588 10-2501
>> ---
>>> 3:24 1-3588 2-3158 4-3017 5-3588 6-3197 7-3588 8-2388 9-3588 10-2501
>> Missing 3rd one, verse was better in previous version
> 
> 
> Regarding the Scrivener variant of Luke 1:35 that introduced "εκ σου"; yes
> I see the variant in ST-SCR.ZIP and in SCRIVNER.ZIP downloaded from http://www.byztxt.com/downloads.html
> According to that page this comes from "Scrivener's 1894 Textus Receptus as
> published by Trinitarian Bible Society"
> However what puzzles me is that I cannot find a manuscript with it at:
>  http://nttranscripts.uni-muenster.de/AnaServer?NTtranscripts+0+start.anv
> 
> Do you know any manuscript with it?
> 
> 
> Blessings,
> ---
> Dios, gracias por tu amor infinito.
> --
>  Vladimir Támara Patiño.  http://vtamara.pasosdeJesus.org/
>  http://www.pasosdejesus.org/dominio_publico_colombia.html
> 
>> Vladimir,
>> Thank you for your observations.
>> I’m the keeper of the KJV for CrossWire. The Strong’s numbering of the NT in the KJV was a collaborative effort of dozens in 2003. There were significant improvements in the module in 2006. And for 2011 we had another significant effort, which was mostly proof reading and correcting problems that were found. Our work in entirely independent of all others and we do not refer to others efforts due to copyright restrictions of those other efforts. Ours is freely available to all others to use as they see fit, but unless they synchronize when we make changes they won’t benefit from improvements.
>> The most recent version of the KJV at CrossWire was a collection of corrections of the markup of Strong’s numbers. Luke was greatly affected as it had a large number of Greek words that were not matched with the English.
>> I’ll comment on the current state of Luke 1:35, as that is your first example.
>> The internal markup of the module is as follows:
>> <verse osisID="Luke.1.35" sID="Luke.1.35”/>
>> <w src="1" lemma="strong:G2532 lemma.TR:και" morph="robinson:CONJ">And</w>
>> <w src="3 4" lemma="strong:G3588 strong:G32 lemma.TR:ο lemma.TR:αγγελος" morph="robinson:T-NSM robinson:N-NSM">the angel</w>
>> <w src="2" lemma="strong:G611 lemma.TR:αποκριθεις" morph="robinson:V-AOP-NSM">answered</w>
>> <w src="5" lemma="strong:G2036 lemma.TR:ειπεν" morph="robinson:V-2AAI-3S">and said</w>
>> <w src="6" lemma="strong:G846 lemma.TR:αυτη" morph="robinson:P-DSF">unto her</w>,
>> <w src="8" lemma="strong:G40 lemma.TR:αγιον" morph="robinson:A-NSN">The Holy</w>
>> <w src="7" lemma="strong:G4151 lemma.TR:πνευμα" morph="robinson:N-NSN">Ghost</w>
>> <w src="9" lemma="strong:G1904 lemma.TR:επελευσεται" morph="robinson:V-FDI-3S">shall come</w>
>> <w src="10" lemma="strong:G1909 lemma.TR:επι" morph="robinson:PREP">upon</w>
>> <w src="11" lemma="strong:G4571 lemma.TR:σε" morph="robinson:P-2AS">thee</w>,
>> <w src="12" lemma="strong:G2532 lemma.TR:και" morph="robinson:CONJ">and</w>
>> <w src="13" lemma="strong:G1411 lemma.TR:δυναμις" morph="robinson:N-NSF">the power</w>
>> <w src="14" lemma="strong:G5310 lemma.TR:υψιστου" morph="robinson:A-GSM">of the Highest</w>
>> <w src="15" lemma="strong:G1982 lemma.TR:επισκιασει" morph="robinson:V-FAI-3S">shall overshadow</w>
>> <w src="16" lemma="strong:G4671 lemma.TR:σοι" morph="robinson:P-2DS">thee</w>:
>> <w src="17" lemma="strong:G1352 lemma.TR:διο" morph="robinson:CONJ">therefore</w>
>> <w src="18" lemma="strong:G2532 lemma.TR:και" morph="robinson:CONJ">also</w>
>> <w src="19 20" lemma="strong:G3588 strong:G1080 lemma.TR:το lemma.TR:γεννωμενον" morph="robinson:T-NSN robinson:V-PPP-NSN" type="x-split-1260">that</w>
>> <w src="23" lemma="strong:G40 lemma.TR:αγιον" morph="robinson:A-NSN">holy thing</w>
>> <w src="19 20" lemma="strong:G3588 strong:G1080 lemma.TR:το lemma.TR:γεννωμενον" morph="robinson:T-NSN robinson:V-PPP-NSN" type="x-split-1260">which shall be born</w>
>> <w src="21" lemma="strong:G1537 lemma.TR:εκ" morph="robinson:PREP">of</w>
>> <w src="22" lemma="strong:G4675 lemma.TR:σου" morph="robinson:P-2GS">thee</w>
>> <w src="24" lemma="strong:G2564 lemma.TR:κληθησεται" morph="robinson:V-FPI-3S">shall be called</w>
>> <w src="25" lemma="strong:G5207 lemma.TR:υιος" morph="robinson:N-NSM">the Son</w>
>> <w src="26" lemma="strong:G2316 lemma.TR:θεου" morph="robinson:N-GSM">of God</w>.
>> <verse eID="Luke.1.35”/>
>> Here is how to understand the markup:
>> 1) src indicates the position of the word in the underlying Greek text. Very seldom do Greek and English follow the same order.
>> 2) lemma gives two types of value, prefixed by strong: and lemma.TR:.
>> 2.1) strong: is followed by the Strong’s number, with Greek having a leading G and Hebrew having a leading H.
>> 2.2) lemma.TR: is followed by the Greek word from the TR (Textus Receptus).
>> 3) morph gives the part of speech and is indexed to the Robinson module.
>> 4) type=“x-split-NNNN” indicates that in translating the Greek into English, the English is in two parts. The NNNN is used to identify the parts of the split that belong together.
>> Note: G3588 is nearly always combined with another and then src, lemma and morph will have two values.
>> You properly noted that εκ σου is different. Here is an explanation.
>> The TR that we used is the Stephens TR Parsed with Scrivener Variants put together by Maurice Robinson (MR) and can be downloaded from:
>> http://www.byztxt.com/download/index.html <http://www.byztxt.com/download/index.html>
>> The version that is there is more current than what we used for the KJV. In the next year or two, I’ll update the KJV to agree with the most recent copy.
>> The version which we used in 2003 has:
>> και αποκριθεις ο αγγελος ειπεν αυτη πνευμα αγιον επελευσεται επι σε και δυναμις υψιστου επισκιασει σοι διο και το γεννωμενον εκ σου αγιον κληθησεται υιος θεου
>> Literally this translates (my translation):
>> και And αποκριθεις answering ο the αγγελος angel ειπεν said αυτη to her πνευμα spirit αγιον holy επελευσεται shall come επι upon σε you και and δυναμις power υψιστου of the highest επισκιασει shall overshadow σοι you διο therefore και also το the γεννωμενον one who will be born εκ from σου you αγιον holy κληθησεται shall be called υιος son θεου of God.
>> The one you provided has:
>> καὶ ἀποκριθεὶς ὁ ἄγγελος εἶπεν αὐτῇ Πνεῦμα ἅγιον ἐπελεύσεται ἐπὶ σέ καὶ δύναμις ὑψίστου ἐπισκιάσει σοι διὸ καὶ τὸ γεννώμενον ἅγιον κληθήσεται υἱὸς θεοῦ
>> Literally this translates (my translation):
>> καὶ And ἀποκριθεὶς answering ὁ the ἄγγελος angel εἶπεν said αὐτῇ to her Πνεῦμα Spirit ἅγιον holy ἐπελεύσεται shall come ἐπὶ upon σέ you καὶ and δύναμις power ὑψίστου of the highest ἐπισκιάσει shall overshadow σοι you διὸ therefore καὶ also τὸ the γεννώμενον one who will be born ἅγιον holy κληθήσεται shall be called υἱὸς son θεοῦ of God.
>> Note that there is nothing that fits the “of thee” in this. In the KJV it is not marked as added text, so it was translated from the underlying text. The big question is where.
>> This difference is one of Scrivener’s variants. Here is the raw input from MR, with the variant highlighted:
>> και 2532 {CONJ} αποκριθεις 611 5679 {V-AOP-NSM} ο 3588 {T-NSM} αγγελος 32 {N-NSM} ειπεν 2036 5627 {V-2AAI-3S} αυτη 846 {P-DSF} πνευμα 4151 {N-NSN} αγιον 40 {A-NSN} επελευσεται 1904 5695 {V-FDI-3S} επι 1909 {PREP} σε 4571 {P-2AS} και 2532 {CONJ} δυναμις 1411 {N-NSF} υψιστου 5310 {A-GSM} επισκιασει 1982 5692 {V-FAI-3S} σοι 4671 {P-2DS} διο 1352 {CONJ} και 2532 {CONJ} το 3588 {T-NSN} γεννωμενον 1080 5746 {V-PPP-NSN} | | εκ 1537 {PREP} σου 4675 {P-2GS} | αγιον 40 {A-NSN} κληθησεται 2564 5701 {V-FPI-3S} υιος 5207 {N-NSM} θεου 2316 {N-GSM}
>> Here you can see that | | εκ 1537 {PREP} σου 4675 {P-2GS} |  is a variant. When I updated this verse, I felt that the variant more naturally fit the English of the KJV that was present and included it.
>> BTW, I’ve 7 semesters of New Testament Greek but it was ages ago.
>> Hope this helps. As a volunteer, I don’t have the time to go through the others. But hopefully it gives you pointers on how to do analysis of the text.
>> BibleDesktop will allow you to see the source of the module for what is displayed on screen. I think it is the only frontend that allows this. Otherwise use mod2imp to dump the module as it is represented internally. If you wish, I have the file from which the module was made.
>> In His Service,
>>    DM Smith
> 
> 
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