[sword-devel] DSS (Biblical Dead Sea Scrolls based upon DJD translations)

Andrew Thule thulester at gmail.com
Thu Nov 8 09:40:07 MST 2012 

Your definition of plagiarism is defective.  I haven't passed off anyone
else work as my own.  I freely admit scholars have done the translating.
I'm not engaged in a commercial venture, and this is for the purpose of
study (at least I don't believe SWORD modules are being produced for
commercial purposes).  A derivative work is justified where the source
material is suitably changed (which is true in this case) and the source of
the text is being cited.  Similarly, their work which I am using has been
significantly transformed and so is exempted from copyright considerations
since that issue is at the heart of derivative work justification.

I've cited copyright law and the tenets of intellectual property that a
lawyer would look at to gauge this case.  What have you done?  Level
emotive unfounded accusations (which I can forgive) and label me?

However much the mob work itself into a frenzy, I don't feel compelled to
obtain anyone's agreement or permission since I am making fair use of
publicly available scholarship.  No one has yet shown that my use is not
'fair' legally.  After all, the legal status of creating derivative work is
governed by legal principles (which are clearly defined by law - not mob
principles).

If you 'feel' this module is not legitimate - feel free to ignore it.

~A


On Thu, Nov 8, 2012 at 2:43 AM, refdoc at gmx.net <refdoc at gmx.net> wrote:

> In the years I am on this list I have heard many crappy justifications for
> ripping off a text wholesale. Insofar yours here is not unique.
>
> This is not about opinion, your lofty hopes on academic disregard for
> copyright or odd legal theories, but in the end it is about the reputation
> of our project. Either you show the permission you have obtained, or a link
> to the publisher's general terms or you stop distributing and talking about
> ripping off these translations.
>
> Sent from my HTC
>
>
> ----- Reply message -----
> From: "Andrew Thule" <thulester at gmail.com>
> To: "SWORD Developers' Collaboration Forum" <sword-devel at crosswire.org>
> Subject: [sword-devel] DSS (Biblical Dead Sea Scrolls based upon DJD
> translations)
> Date: Thu, Nov 8, 2012 03:56
>
>
> Peter, you are entitled to your opinion.
>
> Clearly I have no commercial interest in offering this module to the list
> for QA.  Clearly the translators who have offered their work to DJD did so
> in an academic / research framework (making them available to the broader
> audience), and their translations are often reused and cited outside of
> DJD.  I am not passing off their work untransformed or as my own.
>
> Philosophically, I find only those in publishing want to copyright
> everything because they have a direct financial interest in restricting
> ideas for financial compensation.  But intellectual property, especially in
> academia is NOT THE SAME AS copyright!  Those in academia understand the
> broader benefit of sharing intellectual property for the advancement of
> research to build off the work of others and to have others build off one's
> work.
>
> I've freely made a derivative work based upon publicly available
> translations which have come from a body of academic work (translators
> credited).  I'm not deriving any academic or commercial benefit from this,
> and I do it to further (biblical) study. My conscience is clear despite
> innuendos of plagiarism.  So, you and I will simply have to agree to
> disagree ...
>
> ~A
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 6:47 PM, Peter von Kaehne <refdoc at gmx.net> wrote:
>
>> Your two responses show that your understanding of the terms you use is
>> poor and flawed in all crucial points.
>>
>> While the translators, if asked nicely might well agree to us/you
>> publishing a module, only someone insane takes on an academic publisher
>> with a deliberate breach of copyright.
>>
>> There is occasionally mileage in creating something prior to show off
>> when coming round to discuss copyrights and permissions, but, as I said,
>> this is only occasionally so.
>>
>> I am not going to bore you or the list with definitions.
>>
>> Peter
>>
>> -------- Original-Nachricht --------
>> > Datum: Wed, 7 Nov 2012 17:21:13 -0500
>> > Von: Andrew Thule <thulester at gmail.com>
>> > An: "SWORD Developers\' Collaboration Forum" <sword-devel at crosswire.org
>> >
>> > Betreff: Re: [sword-devel] DSS (Biblical Dead Sea Scrolls based upon
>> DJD      translations)
>>
>> > Forgive me.  I forgot to address your question about what constitutes
>> > 'academic'.
>> >
>> > Dead Sea Scroll translations to date, have been translated by academics,
>> > holding academic positions in academic institutions. The translations
>> have
>> > been (and are being) done for academic purposes, published in academic
>> > publications, such as the one entitled 'Discoveries in the Judean
>> Desert'
>> > (At least, I assume you don't see the production of DJD as a 'commercial
>> > venture').  Dead Sea Scroll 'research', is not a commercial venture
>> (even
>> > if some of its spin-off efforts are).
>> >
>> > Even in the copyright case of Professor Elisha Qimron's, the
>> > Israelisupreme court rules that the
>> > scrolls must be kept available for non-commercial purposes.
>> >
>> > Therefore, when translations are made publicly available in publications
>> > such as 'Discoveries in the Judean Desert: ISBN13: 9780199566662, use of
>> > those translations for non-commercial purposes clearly falls under 'fair
>> > use' (as courts in both Canada and the US frequently assert)
>> >
>> > ~A
>> >
>> > On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 4:35 PM, Andrew Thule <thulester at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> > > Peter, I assume you understand the difference between intellectual
>> > > property and copyright.  I also assume you understand the 'derivative
>> > work'
>> > > principles of 'fair use' and 'transformativeness'..
>>
>> > >
>> > > Within science and academia, authors may cite other authors work
>> without
>> > > permission as long as they provide credit (hence the whole business of
>> > > citations) else science and common bodies of knowledge would not
>> > progress
>> > > for the sake of humanity.  This is also why copyrighting 'science' or
>> > > 'academic results' is generally frowned upon.
>> > >
>> > > The Dead Sea scrolls are not themselves copyrightable.  Their
>> > > translations, being the product of largly publically funded academic
>> > work,
>> > > falls under the category of intellectual property.  As long as I cite
>> > who
>> > > did the original translation and transform the work significantly from
>> > its
>> > > originally published form (which I've done) I'm well within 'fair use'
>> > > however much you protest.  Moreover, when 'fair use' is for academic
>> or
>> > > scientific purposes, rather than commercial purposes, the court err on
>> > the
>> > > side of free and open.
>> > >
>> > > Besides, you're not being any kind of spoil sport since you're
>> entitled
>> > to
>> > > your opinion and I'm really nor seeking your permission to do
>> anything.
>> > My
>> > > offer is open to the community.
>> > >
>> > > With the greatest respect.
>> > > ~A
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > On Wednesday, November 7, 2012, Peter von Kaehne wrote:
>> > >
>> > >> On 07/11/12 15:52, Andrew Thule wrote:
>> > >>
>> > >>> It is a derivative work from academic translations, but for now
>> treat
>> > as
>> > >>> copyrighted, until I resolve the license issue.  With the exception
>> of
>> > >>> Elisha Qimron's translations (by the Israeli Supreme Court no less),
>> > all
>> > >>> other DSS translations are treated as academic or scientific
>> > knowledge,
>> > >>> and so free for use, subject to citation.
>> > >>>
>> > >>
>> > >> I hate being a spoilsport (and I think I get form in that...), but I
>> do
>> > >> not think this will cut it. What is "academic" in these
>> circumstances?
>> > >> Unless the country the translations have been made somehow PDs all
>> > produce
>> > >> by publicly funded universities (unlikely, TBH) then these texts will
>> > be
>> > >> subject to the ordinary rules as usual - no publication unless
>> > permissions
>> > >> are obtained.
>> > >>
>> > >> Now, I think it would be great to gain permission, and academic
>> sources
>> > >> are often very kind + generous with these, but please be careful not
>> to
>> > >> assume.
>> > >>
>> > >> Peter
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >> ______________________________**_________________
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>> > >>
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>>
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