[sword-devel] Dictionary ordering

Wed Sep 17 20:10:28 MST 2008

On Wed, Sep 17, 2008 at 9:56 PM, Daniel Owens <dhowens at pmbx.net> wrote:
> Ben,
>
> Thanks for the explanation. It seems to me that setting up dictionaries to
> use key retrieval from an uncompressed file with one key per line (ordered
> as the module creator orders it) makes the most sense to me. If that helps
> increase efficiency and preserves the order of dictionary entries, then that
> is what we want.

Would it also be possible to put a space-delimited (or anything else
delimited) list of the order that characters ought to be arranged in
for a given dictionary?  Then the module creator could put them in
whatever is desired in the import file, and the ordering can be based
off of the configuration file.  Sorting would be as simple as
replacing the characters in each entry with an integer and sorting the
resulting vectors.  In the absence of a sort-field, then the module
import file's order could default (or the current behavior, whichever
is deemed better)?

--Greg

>
> I will agree that the sorted order is not as important in BPBible because of
> the lookup feature, but that breaks down when you need to browse further
> within a range of entries. Furthermore, the example of "'tis" suggests that,
> even in English, code pointing disturbs the natural order of the dictionary,
> making it harder to browse for the right entry. Unless you type in the
> apostrophe, you won't find "'tis" because it will not be near "t" but be at
> the top of the dictionary, which is very far away. In BibleDesktop, which
> doesn't yet have the lookup feature yet, you have to browse for any
> dictionary entry (except Strongs, where the key is a number and therefore in
> printed order!), so the ordering really does matter. Also, frankly, a
> dictionary out of alphabetical order just looks silly. In Vietnamese it's
> chaotic when dictionaries are ordered by code point. Who ever heard of a
> dictionary where "d" comes after "z"? That's what happens in Vietnamese.
>
> Daniel
>
> Ben Morgan wrote:
>
> Hi Daniel,
>
> Code points are not the only way to sort it.
> However, there does need to be a comparison function defined, which will
> compare two words and give which is bigger.
> This needs to be used consistently, from module creation to frontend. There
> could be a library of defined comparators provided by SWORD - but you would
> need one for each sort order you wanted (which approaches one per language).
>
> Personally, I don't find that sorted order is particularly important in
> dictionaries - I would type in a word, and then hope that if it is a
> different form of the word it would be relatively close. Some frontends may
> not give the ability to type in words, though.
>
> But I haven't used dictionaries in other languages, so it may be different
> for them - especially once diacritics are involved.
>
> The reasons why dictionaries are different from bibles are:
> 1) Bibles have a known structure, which is hardcoded in the key type (this
> is going to be able to change soon, for alternate versification, though -
> probably leading to less efficient modules)
> 2) Dictionaries can be much, much larger - Websters is a 14Mb download
> compressed, as compared to the WEB's ~1.5Mb
>
> That's not to say the dictionaries can't be done more efficiently than they
> are currently. Looking at the code, they could be quicker for the (common?)
> case of incrementing a module. Currently they do a binary search for every
> increment.
> Further, they could probably be optimized for key retrieval - which is the
> really important thing here. (For example by storing the keys separately,
> uncompressed, 1 key per line)
>
> God Bless,
> Ben
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness,
> but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish,
> but that all should reach repentance.
> 2 Peter 3:9 (ESV)
>
>
> On Thu, Sep 18, 2008 at 11:21 AM, Daniel Owens <dhowens at pmbx.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>  Is code point order the ONLY way to sort dictionary entries? Surely there
> is a solution which would retain the printed or intended order of dictionary
> entries without giving up lots of efficiency. If not, I think users would
> find a correctly ordered but slower dictionary to one which is fast but
> jumbled up.
>
> At the very least, even if dictionaries aren't sorted by the printed order,
> they should AT LEAST be in alphabetical order. To me that is a
> non-negotiable for a dictionary--people depend on dictionaries being in the
> right order, and code point order disturbs that for some languages. Here are
> a couple of ideas:
>     - Could a configuration file of some sort be created to define a
> sorted order for a given language that would actually be in alphabetical
> order?
>     - Could a dictionary index be created to handle large dictionaries
> which allows for the retention of the correct order of entries (whether that
> is the printed order or alphabetical order)?
>     - Bibles are not ordered by code point, and we are able to search them
> fairly quickly. Do dictionaries need to be compiled in a fashion similar to
> Bibles?
>
> As it stands, dictionaries are NOT displayed in alphabetical order (at
> least not Vietnamese, and apparently Farsi), which at best looks silly to
> the user and at worst means you have to manually hunt around to find the
> right entry, making a Genbook more efficient for the user in the end. But
> then you lose the dictionary lookup feature.
>
> Daniel
>
> Ben Morgan wrote:
>
> The issue with ordering as I understand it is that if it is in (some form
> of) sorted order, you can use binary search to find entries.
> If you want order retained, it is best to use a genbook - but it won't be as
> efficient, and may not have as good UI support.
> With huge english dictionaries (like Webster's, for instance) this becomes
> very important.
>
> >From BPBible's perspective, dictionary handling is done as follows:
> 1. Read the index of the dictionary and divide by 4 or 6 to get the length
> (depending on the driver)
> 2. Set the virtual list length to the dictionary length
> 3. When any item is displayed in the virtual list, it retrieves it from the
> module.
> 4. When the user starts typing in the text box above, it does a binary
> search to find which item to display.
>
> 4 is already quite slow enough on big dictionaries - by having it unsorted,
> it would make it quite a lot slower, I imagine.
> All the keys from the module would have to be read in, which takes a while.
>
> God Bless,
> Ben
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> -
> The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness,
> but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish,
> but that all should reach repentance.
> 2 Peter 3:9 (ESV)
>
>
> On Thu, Sep 18, 2008 at 12:43 AM, Daniel Owens <dhowens at pmbx.net>
> <dhowens at pmbx.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>  mention that byte ordering does some strange things to Vietnamese
> dictionaries. The Vietnamese script is a Latin script, but because it uses
> some odd characters code point ordering results in illogical and
> non-alphabetical entry ordering. For example, the "d" with a line through it
> (đ) gets relegated to near the end of the dictionary instead of after the
> regular "d" or anything with an apostrophe at the beginning of a word or
> phrase gets moved to the top of the list regardless of the first letter
> (such as 'tis). I am supportive of the IIRC general opinion. Let the module
> creator worry about the ordering. Otherwise you get some very strange
> dictionary behavior.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> sword-devel mailing list:
> sword-devel at crosswire.orghttp://www.crosswire.org/mailman/listinfo/sword-devel
> Instructions to unsubscribe/change your settings at above page
>
>
> --
> PMBX license 1502
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> sword-devel mailing list: sword-devel at crosswire.org
> http://www.crosswire.org/mailman/listinfo/sword-devel
> Instructions to unsubscribe/change your settings at above page
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> _______________________________________________
> sword-devel mailing list: sword-devel at crosswire.org
> http://www.crosswire.org/mailman/listinfo/sword-devel
> Instructions to unsubscribe/change your settings at above page
>
> --
> PMBX license 1502
>
> _______________________________________________
> sword-devel mailing list: sword-devel at crosswire.org
> http://www.crosswire.org/mailman/listinfo/sword-devel
> Instructions to unsubscribe/change your settings at above page
>