The Reign of the <divineName>Lord</divineName>?\<transChange type="added">S</transChange>/ Anointed.

(or ) and . These are not really natural or semantic ways to mark up a commentary. A more obvious and natural way to do it is like this:

Blah blah...

I do actually have a Python script which converts this markup to the that expected by osis2mod, but it uses DOM, and memory usage for the 45 Mb input OSIS file is prohibitive. Anyway, I think creating a version of osis2mod for commentaries is the better way to handle this (I did find an old message in sword-devel saying that an importer would be written if OSIS commentaries were provided). I would write the osis2mod modifications myself, but I've looked at osis2mod and the main function that needs modifying, handleToken(), is a bit of a beast -- about 400 lines, about 20 local variables etc. I'm not confident enough with Sword to be able to refactor it properly, and I don't want to do large amounts of copy and paste. So, is someone willing to help out with this final step? Also, is there a place where I should release this stuff? I think Sword needs a 'sword contrib' project, or at least a section on the wiki that details how to get these different things. I get the impression that the main Sword developers have various scripts to help them, and a central repository for these kinds of tools would be very helpful. A Bazaar repository would probably be ideal -- I could put up a publically readable one for my stuff. Regards, Luke -- Sometimes I wonder if men and women really suit each other. Perhaps they should live next door and just visit now and then. (Katherine Hepburn) Luke Plant || http://lukeplant.me.uk/ From b.drake at ntlworld.com Wed Jul 11 09:06:44 2007 From: b.drake at ntlworld.com (Barry Drake) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 17:06:44 +0100 Subject: [sword-devel] Calvin's commentaries, and ThML to OSIS conversion In-Reply-To: <200707111645.09509.L.Plant.98@cantab.net> References: <200707111645.09509.L.Plant.98@cantab.net> Message-ID: <46950014.7060001@ntlworld.com> Hi there ............. Luke Plant wrote: > I've been trying to create a Sword module containing all of Calvin's > commentaries I was surprised to read this as I have a Sword module of Calvin's commentary. I can't remember how I aquired it but assume that it was from the Crosswire download site. God bless, Barry -- From Barry Drake (The Revd) minister of the Netherfield United Reformed church, Nottingham see http://www.jesusinnetherfield.org.uk for our church homepages). Replies - b.drake at ntlworld.com From L.Plant.98 at cantab.net Wed Jul 11 09:30:26 2007 From: L.Plant.98 at cantab.net (Luke Plant) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 17:30:26 +0100 Subject: [sword-devel] Calvin's commentaries, and ThML to OSIS conversion In-Reply-To: <46950014.7060001@ntlworld.com> References: <200707111645.09509.L.Plant.98@cantab.net> <46950014.7060001@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <200707111730.27465.L.Plant.98@cantab.net> On Wednesday 11 July 2007 17:06:44 Barry Drake wrote: > I was surprised to read this as I have a Sword module of Calvin's > commentary. I can't remember how I aquired it but assume that it was > from the Crosswire download site. Hmm, I'd certainly be interested in that -- it doesn't seem to be here: http://www.crosswire.org/sword/modules/ModDisp.jsp?modType=Commentaries or available from the BibleTime download manager. Luke -- Sometimes I wonder if men and women really suit each other. Perhaps they should live next door and just visit now and then. (Katherine Hepburn) Luke Plant || http://lukeplant.me.uk/ From dmsmith555 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 11 09:38:18 2007 From: dmsmith555 at yahoo.com (DM Smith) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 12:38:18 -0400 Subject: [sword-devel] Calvin's commentaries, and ThML to OSIS conversion In-Reply-To: <200707111730.27465.L.Plant.98@cantab.net> References: <200707111645.09509.L.Plant.98@cantab.net> <46950014.7060001@ntlworld.com> <200707111730.27465.L.Plant.98@cantab.net> Message-ID: <4695077A.1030506@yahoo.com> Luke Plant wrote: > On Wednesday 11 July 2007 17:06:44 Barry Drake wrote: > > >> I was surprised to read this as I have a Sword module of Calvin's >> commentary. I can't remember how I aquired it but assume that it was >> from the Crosswire download site. >> > > Hmm, I'd certainly be interested in that -- it doesn't seem to be here: > > http://www.crosswire.org/sword/modules/ModDisp.jsp?modType=Commentaries > > or available from the BibleTime download manager. > > Luke > > Perhaps he was thinking of Calvin's Institutes, which is available as a GenBook: http://www.crosswire.org/sword/modules/ModDisp.jsp?modType=Books From chrislit at crosswire.org Wed Jul 11 09:40:18 2007 From: chrislit at crosswire.org (Chris Little) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 09:40:18 -0700 Subject: [sword-devel] Calvin's commentaries, and ThML to OSIS conversion In-Reply-To: <46950014.7060001@ntlworld.com> References: <200707111645.09509.L.Plant.98@cantab.net> <46950014.7060001@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <469507F2.1020100@crosswire.org> You didn't get it from us. That module used so much manual editing and modification of the textual format of the original that I did not believe we could reasonably post it. --Chris Barry Drake wrote: > Hi there ............. > > Luke Plant wrote: >> I've been trying to create a Sword module containing all of Calvin's >> commentaries > I was surprised to read this as I have a Sword module of Calvin's > commentary. I can't remember how I aquired it but assume that it was > from the Crosswire download site. > > God bless, > Barry > > -- From Barry Drake (The Revd) minister of the Netherfield United Reformed church, Nottingham see http://www.jesusinnetherfield.org.uk for our church homepages). > > Replies - b.drake at ntlworld.com > > > _______________________________________________ > sword-devel mailing list: sword-devel at crosswire.org > http://www.crosswire.org/mailman/listinfo/sword-devel > Instructions to unsubscribe/change your settings at above page From dmsmith555 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 11 09:55:08 2007 From: dmsmith555 at yahoo.com (DM Smith) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 12:55:08 -0400 Subject: [sword-devel] Calvin's commentaries, and ThML to OSIS conversion In-Reply-To: <200707111645.09509.L.Plant.98@cantab.net> References: <200707111645.09509.L.Plant.98@cantab.net> Message-ID: <46950B6C.8000705@yahoo.com> Luke, This is great! Chris has been maintaining a set of transformation scripts in SVN. Perhaps your xslt could be added there. Yes right now osis2mod expects commentaries to be encoded as a Bible. This is not the way it should be. I guess I'm the owner of osis2mod since I touched it last :) Anyway, I should have some free time in the middle of August to take a look at upgrading it to handle properly encoded commentaries. Please remind me around then. In Him, DM Luke Plant wrote: > Hi all, > > I've been trying to create a Sword module containing all of Calvin's > commentaries, using the ThML sources from CCEL. I've made good > progress, and some of my work should be reusable for other projects. > I've read that Sword is trying to move away from ThML to OSIS, so the > module will be an OSIS module. I've been careful to remove any manual > editing, so that everything can be generated automatically from the > ThML (in case of any updates to the the sources). > > The main steps are: > > 1) Make some corrections to the ThML (use of scripCom tag in > particular) - DONE (implemented using Python script) > > 2) Combine all the ThML files into a single ThML source - DONE (Python) > > 3) Convert to OSIS. I've done this using XSLT, and I'm intending to > release my thml2osis.xslt as a separate project. It is about 90% done > (at least in terms of translating Calvin's Commentaries), and has tests > and so on. It should be a useful and portable utility for converting > other CCEL sources. (The test suite is currently executed using unix > tools, which would be a problem for Windows developers.) > > 4) Import as a Sword module. The problem here is that osis2mod is > basically for importing Bibles only -- it expects you to use

type="book">,

(or ) and . These > are not really natural or semantic ways to mark up a commentary. A more > obvious and natural way to do it is like this: > >

annotateRef="Bible:Gen.1.1">

Blah blah...

> > I do actually have a Python script which converts this markup to the > that expected by osis2mod, but it uses DOM, and memory usage for the 45 > Mb input OSIS file is prohibitive. Anyway, I think creating a version > of osis2mod for commentaries is the better way to handle this (I did > find an old message in sword-devel saying that an importer would be > written if OSIS commentaries were provided). > > I would write the osis2mod modifications myself, but I've looked at > osis2mod and the main function that needs modifying, handleToken(), is > a bit of a beast -- about 400 lines, about 20 local variables etc. I'm > not confident enough with Sword to be able to refactor it properly, and > I don't want to do large amounts of copy and paste. > > So, is someone willing to help out with this final step? > > Also, is there a place where I should release this stuff? I think Sword > needs a 'sword contrib' project, or at least a section on the wiki that > details how to get these different things. I get the impression that > the main Sword developers have various scripts to help them, and a > central repository for these kinds of tools would be very helpful. A > Bazaar repository would probably be ideal -- I could put up a > publically readable one for my stuff. > > Regards, > > Luke > > From scribe at crosswire.org Wed Jul 11 09:36:12 2007 From: scribe at crosswire.org (Troy A. Griffitts) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 10:36:12 -0600 Subject: [sword-devel] Calvin's commentaries, and ThML to OSIS conversion Message-ID: Luke, Thanks for all the work! We do have a repo similar to what you are speaking. It is located here: http://crosswire.org/svn/sword-tools/trunk/ If you'd like a subdirectory in there for your work, let me know and I'll set you up. -Troy. Luke Plant wrote: >On Wednesday 11 July 2007 17:06:44 Barry Drake wrote: > >> I was surprised to read this as I have a Sword module of Calvin's >> commentary. I can't remember how I aquired it but assume that it was >> from the Crosswire download site. > >Hmm, I'd certainly be interested in that -- it doesn't seem to be here: > >http://www.crosswire.org/sword/modules/ModDisp.jsp?modType=Commentaries > >or available from the BibleTime download manager. > >Luke > >-- >Sometimes I wonder if men and women really suit each other. Perhaps >they should live next door and just visit now and then. (Katherine >Hepburn) > >Luke Plant || http://lukeplant.me.uk/ > >_______________________________________________ >sword-devel mailing list: sword-devel at crosswire.org >http://www.crosswire.org/mailman/listinfo/sword-devel >Instructions to unsubscribe/change your settings at above page > > From L.Plant.98 at cantab.net Thu Jul 12 04:44:36 2007 From: L.Plant.98 at cantab.net (Luke Plant) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2007 12:44:36 +0100 Subject: [sword-devel] Calvin's commentaries, and ThML to OSIS conversion In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200707121244.37229.L.Plant.98@cantab.net> On Wednesday 11 July 2007 17:36:12 Troy A. Griffitts wrote: > Luke, > > Thanks for all the work! We do have a repo similar to what you are > speaking. It is located here: > > http://crosswire.org/svn/sword-tools/trunk/ > > If you'd like a subdirectory in there for your work, let me know and > I'll set you up. Ah ha! I *knew* there must be something like that. Anyway, I think I'd like one directory called 'thml2osis', perhaps directly in 'trunk'. I'd like another one, called 'calvinscommentaries', in the 'modules' subdirectory. I hoping to pull out bits of my Python code as a library. For this purpose, I think it would be good to have another directory called 'python' (under trunk), into which I could start to put a library. (This means that other people using this library could just put a single directory in their PYTHONPATH, rather than copy files around). Thanks very much, let me know any other details you need to set me up with Subversion access. Luke -- The early bird gets the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese. --Steven Wright Luke Plant || http://lukeplant.me.uk/ From karl at kleinpaste.org Thu Jul 12 04:59:46 2007 From: karl at kleinpaste.org (Karl Kleinpaste) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2007 07:59:46 -0400 Subject: [sword-devel] NASB -vs- -vs- uppercase, reprised Message-ID: After recent "svn up", I notice that something has been done regarding the ToUpper problem, but it is not having the needed effect. As seen in GnomeSword, "Lord's" does not contain the usual HTML formulation: "LORD". Cf. NASB Ps 22:28. From L.Plant.98 at cantab.net Fri Jul 13 10:06:02 2007 From: L.Plant.98 at cantab.net (Luke Plant) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2007 18:06:02 +0100 Subject: [sword-devel] Calvin's commentaries, and ThML to OSIS conversion In-Reply-To: <46950B6C.8000705@yahoo.com> References: <200707111645.09509.L.Plant.98@cantab.net> <46950B6C.8000705@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200707131806.03151.L.Plant.98@cantab.net> On Wednesday 11 July 2007 17:55:08 DM Smith wrote: > Yes right now osis2mod expects commentaries to be encoded as a Bible. > This is not the way it should be. I guess I'm the owner of osis2mod > since I touched it last :) Anyway, I should have some free time in > the middle of August to take a look at upgrading it to handle > properly encoded commentaries. Please remind me around then. That's great, I will remind you later. For anyone else who is interested, the complete commentary in OSIS format (bzipped) is now here: http://lukeplant.me.uk/misc/sword/calvinscommentaries.osis.bz2 (it may require a bit more work, but it is at least valid OSIS in about the right structure you would expect for a commentary, and almost lossless from the ThML apart from header information I think). Once I get access to the subversion repository, I'll upload my conversion scripts there. Regards, Luke -- "The first ten million years were the worst. And the second ten million, they were the worst too. The third ten million, I didn't enjoy at all. After that I went into a bit of a decline." (Marvin the paranoid android) Luke Plant || http://lukeplant.me.uk/ From chrislit at crosswire.org Fri Jul 13 12:10:18 2007 From: chrislit at crosswire.org (Chris Little) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2007 12:10:18 -0700 Subject: [sword-devel] Calvin's commentaries, and ThML to OSIS conversion In-Reply-To: <200707121244.37229.L.Plant.98@cantab.net> References: <200707121244.37229.L.Plant.98@cantab.net> Message-ID: <4697CE1A.7040206@crosswire.org> I forgot to mention, CCEL does already posses ThML to OSIS conversion software (or possibly style sheets). It doesn't look like they're active any more, since their last update, but you might try contacting them directly to get their work. It's probably for an earlier version of OSIS, but OSIS hasn't changed that much that it shouldn't be easy to update them. --Chris Luke Plant wrote: > On Wednesday 11 July 2007 17:36:12 Troy A. Griffitts wrote: >> Luke, >> >> Thanks for all the work! We do have a repo similar to what you are >> speaking. It is located here: >> >> http://crosswire.org/svn/sword-tools/trunk/ >> >> If you'd like a subdirectory in there for your work, let me know and >> I'll set you up. > > Ah ha! I *knew* there must be something like that. Anyway, I think I'd > like one directory called 'thml2osis', perhaps directly in 'trunk'. > I'd like another one, called 'calvinscommentaries', in the 'modules' > subdirectory. > > I hoping to pull out bits of my Python code as a library. For this > purpose, I think it would be good to have another directory > called 'python' (under trunk), into which I could start to put a > library. (This means that other people using this library could just > put a single directory in their PYTHONPATH, rather than copy files > around). > > Thanks very much, let me know any other details you need to set me up > with Subversion access. > > Luke > From leandro at dutra.fastmail.fm Sat Jul 14 18:44:34 2007 From: leandro at dutra.fastmail.fm (Leandro =?iso-8859-1?Q?Guimar=E3es?= Faria Corcete DUTRA) Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2007 22:44:34 -0300 Subject: [sword-devel] =?utf-8?q?French_ligatures_in_Louis_S=C3=89GOND?= =?utf-8?b?4oCZcyB0ZXh0?= Message-ID: <877ip24f0d.fsf@negro.diretriz.dyndns.org.> I notices there are no French ligatures in Louis S?GOND?s translation. For example, it is written coeur and soeur instead of c?ur and s?eur. Worse still, when one search for c?ur or s?ur nothing comes. So two questions. First, can I fix the text, or will the display engine be fixed? Second, can the search engine be made to understand ligatures? Ideally it should not care if one writes the canonical expansion or the ligature itself, it should find all relevant matches also either ligated or expanded. -- +55 (11) 9406 7191 http://br.geocities.com./lgcdutra/ +55 (11) 5685 2219 gTalk: xmpp:leandrod jabber.org +55 (11) 3040 7300 r151 Yahoo!: ymsgr:sendIM?lgcdutra +55 (11) 5686 9607 ICQ/AIM: aim:GoIM?screenname=61287803 MSN: msnim:chat?contact=leandro dutra.fastmail.fm From scribe at crosswire.org Sat Jul 14 22:37:26 2007 From: scribe at crosswire.org (Troy A. Griffitts) Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2007 22:37:26 -0700 Subject: [sword-devel] Linuxworld Expo Message-ID: <4699B296.2060708@crosswire.org> Hey guys and gals, I just booked my trip to Linuxworld Expo and was wondering if there would be anyone else there this year. Would love to hookup. Also, if we have 1.5.10 and frontends built, all on a new ISO and in time, I'll burn a 1000 CD run we can hand out there. So, have a look at: http:/crosswire.org/bugs and see what you can fix :) http://www.linuxworldexpo.com -Troy. From chrislit at crosswire.org Sun Jul 15 00:09:53 2007 From: chrislit at crosswire.org (Chris Little) Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2007 00:09:53 -0700 Subject: [sword-devel] =?windows-1252?q?French_ligatures_in_Louis_S=C9GOND?= =?windows-1252?q?=92s_text?= In-Reply-To: <877ip24f0d.fsf@negro.diretriz.dyndns.org.> References: <877ip24f0d.fsf@negro.diretriz.dyndns.org.> Message-ID: <4699C841.8050909@crosswire.org> We could change oe to oe-ligature where appropriate in Louis Segond. That would be simple enough since editions exist online that use oe-ligature correctly. However, since we won't be doing language-specific search tweaks and since oe-ligature basicallly can't be typed on French keyboards, the change would make these words unsearchable. While the ligature might be helpful to non-native speakers needing cues to pronunciation, I don't think any native French speakers would have any issues with reading the text exactly as it is now. Do you still think the change would be beneficial? Do any users who use French as their primary language consider the change an improvement? --Chris Leandro Guimar?es Faria Corcete DUTRA wrote: > I notices there are no French ligatures in Louis S??GOND???s > translation. For example, it is written coeur and soeur instead of c??ur and > s??eur. Worse still, when one search for c??ur or s??ur nothing comes. > > So two questions. First, can I fix the text, or will the display > engine be fixed? Second, can the search engine be made to understand > ligatures? Ideally it should not care if one writes the canonical expansion > or the ligature itself, it should find all relevant matches also either > ligated or expanded. > From leandro at dutra.fastmail.fm Sun Jul 15 18:31:28 2007 From: leandro at dutra.fastmail.fm (Leandro =?iso-8859-1?Q?Guimar=C3=A3es?= Faria Corcete DUTRA) Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2007 22:31:28 -0300 Subject: [sword-devel] =?utf-8?q?French_ligatures_in_Louis_S=C3=89GOND?= =?utf-8?b?4oCZcyB0ZXh0?= References: <877ip24f0d.fsf@negro.diretriz.dyndns.org.> <4699C841.8050909@crosswire.org> Message-ID: <873azp3zin.fsf@negro.diretriz.dyndns.org.> Chris Little writes: > We could change oe to oe-ligature where appropriate in Louis Segond. > That would be simple enough since editions exist online that use > oe-ligature correctly. Also, it is not that many words using that? c?ur, s?ur, m?ur? Is there anyone to do it already, or should I do it? > However, since we won't be doing language-specific search tweaks That is not what I meant ? I mean a general fix, where ligatures at the search box would find expanded characters, and vice?versa. Just like Google does it, with all kind of European ligatures. In the end it is an Unicode question, I guess? > since oe-ligature basicallly can't be typed on French keyboards Yes, but regardless of keyboards us GNU/Linux users who love typography (admittedly a small subset) have it mapped and used it quite often. More seriously, now that computers are more capable there has been a slow movement back to fine typography, with Unicode, OpenType and even updates to venerable ??? software helping. And as I see it, it is not a language-specific issue. I have no idea of how difficult would be to implement proper search semantics, so feel free to ignore me, but it would be nice. > the change would make these words unsearchable. While the ligature might be > helpful to non-native speakers needing cues to pronunciation, I don't think > any native French speakers would have any issues with reading the text > exactly as it is now. Indeed, but it is ugly. Just as unaccented uppercase in French was considered acceptable in the typewriter age but now is frowned upon. > Do you still think the change would be beneficial? I do. > Do any users who use French as their primary language consider the > change an improvement? Are there enough of us here for a poll? I count myself in in the absence of Portuguese texts? -- +55 (11) 9406 7191 http://br.geocities.com./lgcdutra/ +55 (11) 5685 2219 gTalk: xmpp:leandrod jabber.org +55 (11) 3040 7300 r151 Yahoo!: ymsgr:sendIM?lgcdutra +55 (11) 5686 9607 ICQ/AIM: aim:GoIM?screenname=61287803 MSN: msnim:chat?contact=leandro dutra.fastmail.fm From dmsmith555 at yahoo.com Sun Jul 15 20:08:27 2007 From: dmsmith555 at yahoo.com (DM Smith) Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2007 23:08:27 -0400 Subject: [sword-devel] =?windows-1252?q?French_ligatures_in_Louis_S=C9GOND?= =?windows-1252?q?=92s_text?= In-Reply-To: <873azp3zin.fsf@negro.diretriz.dyndns.org.> References: <877ip24f0d.fsf@negro.diretriz.dyndns.org.> <4699C841.8050909@crosswire.org> <873azp3zin.fsf@negro.diretriz.dyndns.org.> Message-ID: FYI, The KJV has ae ligatures. The Webster's dictionary has ligatures but I don't remember which. There may be other modules. WRT to the KJV the tradition is to reduce it to one character. My guess is that alternate representations of ligatures and accented characters (e.g. umlauts) is locale sensitive. It is easy enough to use "char map" or some other virtual keyboard to enter them. Even cut and paste. IMHO, our software should allow for the text to be robustly represented and our search flexible enough to find the most appropriate match. With regard to lucene, this can be done by additionally indexing normalized words and additionally searching the normalizations. DM On Jul 15, 2007, at 9:31 PM, Leandro Guimar??es Faria Corcete DUTRA wrote: > Chris Little writes: > >> We could change oe to oe-ligature where appropriate in Louis Segond. >> That would be simple enough since editions exist online that use >> oe-ligature correctly. > > Also, it is not that many words using that? c?ur, s?ur, m?ur? > > Is there anyone to do it already, or should I do it? > > >> However, since we won't be doing language-specific search tweaks > > That is not what I meant ? I mean a general fix, where ligatures at > the search box would find expanded characters, and vice?versa. > Just like > Google does it, with all kind of European ligatures. > > In the end it is an Unicode question, I guess? > > >> since oe-ligature basicallly can't be typed on French keyboards > > Yes, but regardless of keyboards us GNU/Linux users who love > typography (admittedly a small subset) have it mapped and used it > quite often. > > More seriously, now that computers are more capable there > has been a > slow movement back to fine typography, with Unicode, OpenType and > even updates > to venerable ??? software helping. And as I see it, it is not a > language-specific issue. I have no idea of how difficult would be to > implement proper search semantics, so feel free to ignore me, but > it would be > nice. > > >> the change would make these words unsearchable. While the ligature >> might be >> helpful to non-native speakers needing cues to pronunciation, I >> don't think >> any native French speakers would have any issues with reading the >> text >> exactly as it is now. > > Indeed, but it is ugly. Just as unaccented uppercase in French was > considered acceptable in the typewriter age but now is frowned upon. > > >> Do you still think the change would be beneficial? > > I do. > > >> Do any users who use French as their primary language consider the >> change an improvement? > > Are there enough of us here for a poll? > > I count myself in in the absence of Portuguese texts? > > -- > +55 (11) 9406 7191 http://br.geocities.com./lgcdutra/ > +55 (11) 5685 2219 gTalk: xmpp:leandrod at jabber.org > +55 (11) 3040 7300 r151 Yahoo!: ymsgr:sendIM?lgcdutra > +55 (11) 5686 9607 ICQ/AIM: aim:GoIM?screenname=61287803 > MSN: msnim:chat?contact=leandro at dutra.fastmail.fm > > > _______________________________________________ > sword-devel mailing list: sword-devel at crosswire.org > http://www.crosswire.org/mailman/listinfo/sword-devel > Instructions to unsubscribe/change your settings at above page From chrislit at crosswire.org Sun Jul 15 23:16:03 2007 From: chrislit at crosswire.org (Chris Little) Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2007 23:16:03 -0700 Subject: [sword-devel] =?utf-8?q?French_ligatures_in_Louis_S=C3=89GOND?= =?utf-8?b?4oCZcyB0ZXh0?= In-Reply-To: <873azp3zin.fsf@negro.diretriz.dyndns.org.> References: <877ip24f0d.fsf@negro.diretriz.dyndns.org.> <4699C841.8050909@crosswire.org> <873azp3zin.fsf@negro.diretriz.dyndns.org.> Message-ID: <469B0D23.60700@crosswire.org> Leandro Guimar?es Faria Corcete DUTRA wrote: > Chris Little writes: > >> We could change oe to oe-ligature where appropriate in Louis Segond. >> That would be simple enough since editions exist online that use >> oe-ligature correctly. > > Also, it is not that many words using that? c?ur, s?ur, m?ur? > > Is there anyone to do it already, or should I do it? WikiSource already has a copy with oe-lig that we could use. No need to repeat the work. >> However, since we won't be doing language-specific search tweaks > > That is not what I meant ? I mean a general fix, where ligatures at > the search box would find expanded characters, and vice?versa. Just like > Google does it, with all kind of European ligatures. There's a simplistic solution for searching like you suggest by decomposing ligatures as their components as part of the strip filter process. That will work fine for French, I suppose, and Latin but it would return incorrect results in other languages. In Norwegian, ae-ligature is a letter on its own, not related to a or e. In Swedish the same letter is written as a-umlaut. In Icelandic, oe-ligature shouldn't be decomposed to oe either. Should umlauted letters be decomposed also? So a-umlaut becomes ae, o-umlaut becomes oe, u-umlaut becomes ue--which works fine for German, but I doubt for many other languages. And what about i-umlaut and e-umlaut? And what about letters with accents? Some languages would simply drop the accent, others would double the letter, and there may be other behaviors I don't know about. The only ligatures that we could safely decompose without reference to language are typographic ligatures, and we would never encode those as ligatures in the first place. I don't know how Google does what they do. They may do language identification and language-specific processing of documents. But they have a lot more data and horsepower at their disposal than we do. > In the end it is an Unicode question, I guess? It's not a Unicode question because Unicode doesn't deal with this issue. The decomposition of oe-ligature to oe would be a language-specific detail and is not encoded in any of Unicode's data sets. >> since oe-ligature basicallly can't be typed on French keyboards > > Yes, but regardless of keyboards us GNU/Linux users who love > typography (admittedly a small subset) have it mapped and used it quite often. I'm understandably more concerned with Windows users who would lose functionality. --Chris From eekaikko at mail.student.oulu.fi Mon Jul 16 00:39:37 2007 From: eekaikko at mail.student.oulu.fi (Eeli Kaikkonen) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2007 10:39:37 +0300 (EEST) Subject: [sword-devel] =?utf-8?q?French_ligatures_in_Louis_S=C3=89GOND?= =?utf-8?b?4oCZcyB0ZXh0?= In-Reply-To: <469B0D23.60700@crosswire.org> References: <877ip24f0d.fsf@negro.diretriz.dyndns.org.> <4699C841.8050909@crosswire.org> <873azp3zin.fsf@negro.diretriz.dyndns.org.> <469B0D23.60700@crosswire.org> Message-ID: On Sun, 15 Jul 2007, Chris Little wrote: > Should umlauted letters be decomposed also? So a-umlaut becomes ae, > o-umlaut becomes oe, u-umlaut becomes ue--which works fine for German, > but I doubt for many other languages. It doesn't work for Swedish and I think not for other Scandinavian languages either. Definitely not for Finnish. > The only ligatures that we could safely decompose without reference to > language are typographic ligatures, and we would never encode those as > ligatures in the first place. As was said, KJV and Webster's use ligatures (IIRC the first entry in Webster's is a ligature - or was it the last one?) For those languages/modules where the occasions are rare, could it be possible to add special markup inside the module? like insert-ae-ligature-hereword-with-ae? Then that markup could be indexed with the main text for the search. Yours, Eeli Kaikkonen (Mr.), Oulu, Finland e-mail: eekaikko at mailx.studentx.oulux.fix (with no x) From scribe at crosswire.org Mon Jul 16 01:06:55 2007 From: scribe at crosswire.org (Troy A. Griffitts) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2007 01:06:55 -0700 Subject: [sword-devel] =?windows-1252?q?French_ligatures_in_Louis_S=C9GOND?= =?windows-1252?q?=92s_text?= In-Reply-To: References: <877ip24f0d.fsf@negro.diretriz.dyndns.org.> <4699C841.8050909@crosswire.org> <873azp3zin.fsf@negro.diretriz.dyndns.org.> <469B0D23.60700@crosswire.org> Message-ID: <469B271F.7060607@crosswire.org> Regarding searching, when you can define the correct behavior for a language, we can search appropriately in sword. We do something similar for the early papyri and inscription databases. 1) We add a special strip filter to the .conf file appropriate for the module, which normalizes the search text. 2) Then, the user supplied search expression is also passes through this same filter. It seems to work quite appropriately for the papyri searching. You can supply accented or unaccented greek, and searches will match even regardless of transcription marks like [](), etc. Here is an example. Notice the unaccented search text and the different results, even across papyri annotations. http://crosswire.org/study/wordsearchresults.jsp?mod=DDP&searchTerm=%CE%BC%CE%B1%CE%BA%CE%B1%CF%81%CE%B9%CE%BF* Eeli Kaikkonen wrote: > On Sun, 15 Jul 2007, Chris Little wrote: >> Should umlauted letters be decomposed also? So a-umlaut becomes ae, >> o-umlaut becomes oe, u-umlaut becomes ue--which works fine for German, >> but I doubt for many other languages. > > It doesn't work for Swedish and I think not for other Scandinavian > languages either. Definitely not for Finnish. > >> The only ligatures that we could safely decompose without reference to >> language are typographic ligatures, and we would never encode those as >> ligatures in the first place. > > As was said, KJV and Webster's use ligatures (IIRC the first entry in > Webster's is a ligature - or was it the last one?) > > For those languages/modules where the occasions are rare, could it be > possible to add special markup inside the module? like > insert-ae-ligature-hereword-with-ae? > > Then that markup could be indexed with the main text for the search. > > Yours, > Eeli Kaikkonen (Mr.), Oulu, Finland > e-mail: eekaikko at mailx.studentx.oulux.fix (with no x) > > _______________________________________________ > sword-devel mailing list: sword-devel at crosswire.org > http://www.crosswire.org/mailman/listinfo/sword-devel > Instructions to unsubscribe/change your settings at above page From eekaikko at mail.student.oulu.fi Mon Jul 16 02:26:32 2007 From: eekaikko at mail.student.oulu.fi (Eeli Kaikkonen) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2007 12:26:32 +0300 (EEST) Subject: [sword-devel] GPL 3 licencing issues Message-ID: Sword library source code has some licencing issues. Different files have different licence statements. They should be reviewed and corrected. The problem is mostly theoretical because nobody really cares - the library is under GPL and that's that. But there may arise issues later with GPL 3. Some of you may already know that GPL 2 and 3 are NOT compatible. That may sound weird but that's how it is. The only thing which makes them compatible is the copyright notice which is not part of the licence. If it reads "relased under GPL v 2 or later" it's compatible. If it reads "released under GPL" it is unclear. If it reads "released under GPL; see the attached licence" and the GPL v 2 is attached it is technically GPL 2 only and not compatible with version 3. Inside Crosswire this is not important because we don't sue ourselves because of inconsistency. But if and when we use other libraries inside Sword library and when the frontend projects use many different libraries this may become an issue. Most probably we want the Sword licence to be "under GPL v. 2 or any later version" to secure the widest compatibility possible. Even after that the library or the frontends can not use two libraries of which one is under GPL2 only and the other GPL3 only. Yours, Eeli Kaikkonen (Mr.), Oulu, Finland e-mail: eekaikko at mailx.studentx.oulux.fix (with no x) From dmsmith555 at yahoo.com Mon Jul 16 05:16:52 2007 From: dmsmith555 at yahoo.com (DM Smith) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2007 08:16:52 -0400 Subject: [sword-devel] =?windows-1252?q?French_ligatures_in_Louis_S=C9GOND?= =?windows-1252?q?=92s_text?= In-Reply-To: <469B0D23.60700@crosswire.org> References: <877ip24f0d.fsf@negro.diretriz.dyndns.org.> <4699C841.8050909@crosswire.org> <873azp3zin.fsf@negro.diretriz.dyndns.org.> <469B0D23.60700@crosswire.org> Message-ID: On Jul 16, 2007, at 2:16 AM, Chris Little wrote: > Leandro Guimar?es Faria Corcete DUTRA wrote: >> Chris Little writes: >> >>> We could change oe to oe-ligature where appropriate in Louis Segond. >>> That would be simple enough since editions exist online that use >>> oe-ligature correctly. >> >> Also, it is not that many words using that? c?ur, s?ur, m?ur? >> >> Is there anyone to do it already, or should I do it? > > > WikiSource already has a copy with oe-lig that we could use. No > need to > repeat the work. > >>> However, since we won't be doing language-specific search tweaks >> >> That is not what I meant ? I mean a general fix, where ligatures >> at >> the search box would find expanded characters, and vice?versa. >> Just like >> Google does it, with all kind of European ligatures. > > > There's a simplistic solution for searching like you suggest by > decomposing ligatures as their components as part of the strip filter > process. That will work fine for French, I suppose, and Latin but it > would return incorrect results in other languages. In Norwegian, > ae-ligature is a letter on its own, not related to a or e. In Swedish > the same letter is written as a-umlaut. In Icelandic, oe-ligature > shouldn't be decomposed to oe either. I don't think our search results have to be "perfect". Any searching of anything but the exact representation of the text can bring back "wrong" or "unexpected" results. Unexpected results also happen when the user does not have "proper" expectations. Doesn't ICU have locale sensitive decomposition (or transliteration)? If it does then why can't we use the language of the module to set the locale then decompose. This is what we are planning to do for JSword (it has been on the todo list for years). Lucene has the capability of boosting the importance of search terms as part of it's scoring mechanism for prioritizing search results. By boosting the user's "as-is" terms and ORing that with a normalization against a normalized field, perhaps with a lowered boost factor, it probably would give closer to expected results. > > Should umlauted letters be decomposed also? So a-umlaut becomes ae, > o-umlaut becomes oe, u-umlaut becomes ue--which works fine for German, > but I doubt for many other languages. And what about i-umlaut and > e-umlaut? And what about letters with accents? Some languages would > simply drop the accent, others would double the letter, and there > may be > other behaviors I don't know about. > > The only ligatures that we could safely decompose without reference to > language are typographic ligatures, and we would never encode those as > ligatures in the first place. > > I don't know how Google does what they do. They may do language > identification and language-specific processing of documents. But they > have a lot more data and horsepower at their disposal than we do. > >> In the end it is an Unicode question, I guess? > > It's not a Unicode question because Unicode doesn't deal with this > issue. The decomposition of oe-ligature to oe would be a > language-specific detail and is not encoded in any of Unicode's > data sets. > >>> since oe-ligature basicallly can't be typed on French keyboards >> >> Yes, but regardless of keyboards us GNU/Linux users who love >> typography (admittedly a small subset) have it mapped and used it >> quite often. > > I'm understandably more concerned with Windows users who would lose > functionality. > > --Chris From al at sitesclan.com Mon Jul 16 06:40:13 2007 From: al at sitesclan.com (Albert L. Sites, Sr.) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2007 09:40:13 -0400 Subject: [sword-devel] Sword CE Message-ID: Is swordce dead? I do not see it in the trunk. I am new to Sword. I would like to be able to use Sword on my Motorola Q and would be willing to help. Al Sites From keithpre at gmail.com Mon Jul 16 08:04:16 2007 From: keithpre at gmail.com (keith preston) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2007 10:04:16 -0500 Subject: [sword-devel] GPL 3 licencing issues In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3837d8b10707160804r2a5b5bc9y927f88ee39842399@mail.gmail.com> Speaking of licensing issues, I've always wondered why Sword was licensed under the GPL license. Is there a specific purpose for being specifically GPL? To me if would be benifical for the library to be LGPL or a less restrictive license. I mean the purpose of the code is to make the bible available and is specifically designed in that respect. I believe the GPL restricts use of this purpose. For example, say I am a commercial company and I put out a device and publish an api to my UI. Some random hacker comes around and implements a sword program with that API and distribute the program freely. This generally is only possible if the company decided to open source their entire UI, which frequently might not be the case. In fact, the GPL restricts what components can be linked into a program. There are probably more issues then I am thinking of here, but to me I would give the code away and hope people used it to make the bible available to more people. Keith Preston On 7/16/07, Eeli Kaikkonen wrote: > > Sword library source code has some licencing issues. Different files > have different licence statements. They should be reviewed and > corrected. > > The problem is mostly theoretical because nobody really cares - the > library is under GPL and that's that. But there may arise issues later > with GPL 3. Some of you may already know that GPL 2 and 3 are NOT > compatible. That may sound weird but that's how it is. The only thing > which makes them compatible is the copyright notice which is not part of > the licence. If it reads "relased under GPL v 2 or later" it's > compatible. If it reads "released under GPL" it is unclear. If it reads > "released under GPL; see the attached licence" and the GPL v 2 is > attached it is technically GPL 2 only and not compatible with version 3. > > Inside Crosswire this is not important because we don't sue ourselves > because of inconsistency. But if and when we use other libraries inside > Sword library and when the frontend projects use many different > libraries this may become an issue. > > Most probably we want the Sword licence to be "under GPL v. 2 or any > later version" to secure the widest compatibility possible. Even after > that the library or the frontends can not use two libraries of which one > is under GPL2 only and the other GPL3 only. > > Yours, > Eeli Kaikkonen (Mr.), Oulu, Finland > e-mail: eekaikko at mailx.studentx.oulux.fix (with no x) > > _______________________________________________ > sword-devel mailing list: sword-devel at crosswire.org > http://www.crosswire.org/mailman/listinfo/sword-devel > Instructions to unsubscribe/change your settings at above page > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.crosswire.org/pipermail/sword-devel/attachments/20070716/84279d3d/attachment.html From eekaikko at mail.student.oulu.fi Mon Jul 16 08:26:55 2007 From: eekaikko at mail.student.oulu.fi (Eeli Kaikkonen) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2007 18:26:55 +0300 (EEST) Subject: [sword-devel] GPL vs. other licencies In-Reply-To: <3837d8b10707160804r2a5b5bc9y927f88ee39842399@mail.gmail.com> References: <3837d8b10707160804r2a5b5bc9y927f88ee39842399@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 16 Jul 2007, keith preston wrote: > Speaking of licensing issues, I've always wondered why Sword was licensed > under the GPL license. Personally I also like less restrictive licencies. However, I understand that there are different situations which call different licencies. If Sword were published under LGPL it would soon be adopted into freeware and commercial programs. It's highly probable that we wouldn't get anything from that. It would be useful if they gave back some code contributions or helped us with module licencing issues, but I think that would not happen. Commercial developers already have enough resources without our library. And if someone wants to code software to spread the Word of God it's already possible with Free Software. It's even possible to ask donations and thereby get some money out of the software. Using GPL is kind of a fair trade: you can use our code, we can use yours. I don't see why Bible software should be closed source or why we should help others make closed source Bible software. Therefore, though I prefer LGPL or even BSD and could have decided to use them if I had started this project, GPL is enough for me here and now. Yours, Eeli Kaikkonen (Mr.), Oulu, Finland e-mail: eekaikko at mailx.studentx.oulux.fix (with no x) From jtgalyon at gmail.com Mon Jul 16 08:43:21 2007 From: jtgalyon at gmail.com (Jason Galyon) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2007 10:43:21 -0500 Subject: [sword-devel] GPL vs. other licencies In-Reply-To: References: <3837d8b10707160804r2a5b5bc9y927f88ee39842399@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <469B9219.5070302@gmail.com> There is always the possibility of dual licensing. A company could obtain special permission to use a less restrictive license given that certain requirements are met. I personally have long been a supporter of the "ransom" model. When a certain amount of time or income has been met the source is then made available under an Open Source license. Plus there are many non GPL products out there that have plenty of contributions made from companies. My company contributes code and other components (not our main product though). Jason Eeli Kaikkonen wrote: > On Mon, 16 Jul 2007, keith preston wrote: > >> Speaking of licensing issues, I've always wondered why Sword was licensed >> under the GPL license. > > Personally I also like less restrictive licencies. However, I understand > that there are different situations which call different licencies. > > If Sword were published under LGPL it would soon be adopted into > freeware and commercial programs. It's highly probable that we wouldn't > get anything from that. It would be useful if they gave back some > code contributions or helped us with module licencing issues, but I > think that would not happen. > > Commercial developers already have enough resources without our library. > And if someone wants to code software to spread the Word of God it's > already possible with Free Software. It's even possible to ask donations > and thereby get some money out of the software. > > Using GPL is kind of a fair trade: you can use our code, we can use > yours. I don't see why Bible software should be closed source or why we > should help others make closed source Bible software. > > Therefore, though I prefer LGPL or even BSD and could have decided to > use them if I had started this project, GPL is enough for me here and > now. > > Yours, > Eeli Kaikkonen (Mr.), Oulu, Finland > e-mail: eekaikko at mailx.studentx.oulux.fix (with no x) > > _______________________________________________ > sword-devel mailing list: sword-devel at crosswire.org > http://www.crosswire.org/mailman/listinfo/sword-devel > Instructions to unsubscribe/change your settings at above page > From chrislit at crosswire.org Mon Jul 16 08:55:56 2007 From: chrislit at crosswire.org (Chris Little) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2007 08:55:56 -0700 Subject: [sword-devel] GPL 3 licencing issues In-Reply-To: <3837d8b10707160804r2a5b5bc9y927f88ee39842399@mail.gmail.com> References: <3837d8b10707160804r2a5b5bc9y927f88ee39842399@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <469B950C.6050508@crosswire.org> keith preston wrote: > Speaking of licensing issues, I've always wondered why Sword was > licensed under the GPL license. Is there a specific purpose for being > specifically GPL? To me if would be benifical for the library to be > LGPL or a less restrictive license. I mean the purpose of the code is > to make the bible available and is specifically designed in that > respect. I believe the GPL restricts use of this purpose. I think generally we're of the opinion that it would be best if Sword remained free software--and that includes both the library and the frontends, as well as some of the Sword-related tools. We want our software to be used, both by developers and end-users. But we don't want our years of work to be adopted by developers who just want to make a buck off of our work without any compensation. By using the GPL, developers have to repay us in kind by giving us the same rights to their work as they give to us. As a result, when we want to extend their work, we can. When they retire from development, their projects can continue to be developed, etc. > For example, say I am a commercial company and I put out a device and > publish an api to my UI. Some random hacker comes around and > implements a sword program with that API and distribute the program > freely. This generally is only possible if the company decided to > open source their entire UI, which frequently might not be the case. In > fact, the GPL restricts what components can be linked into a program. This is, I believe, a pretty common misunderstanding about the GPL, which would in no way restrict this sort of development. OS libraries can be linked by GPL software without being under a GPL-compatible license. That's stated by the license. We use the Win32 API and various components and APIs from Borland--none of which are open sourced. A hypothetical program to be developed by a hypothetical developer for a hypothetical device isn't the most compelling argument for giving our software away to commercial developers for free. --Chris From keithpre at gmail.com Mon Jul 16 09:26:14 2007 From: keithpre at gmail.com (keith preston) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2007 11:26:14 -0500 Subject: [sword-devel] GPL 3 licencing issues In-Reply-To: <469B950C.6050508@crosswire.org> References: <3837d8b10707160804r2a5b5bc9y927f88ee39842399@mail.gmail.com> <469B950C.6050508@crosswire.org> Message-ID: <3837d8b10707160926n1018305x73dafc91add0c0db@mail.gmail.com> > I think generally we're of the opinion that it would be best if Sword > remained free software--and that includes both the library and the > frontends, as well as some of the Sword-related tools. We want our software to be used, both by developers and end-users. But > we don't want our years of work to be adopted by developers who just > want to make a buck off of our work without any compensation. By using > the GPL, developers have to repay us in kind by giving us the same > rights to their work as they give to us. As a result, when we want to > extend their work, we can. When they retire from development, their > projects can continue to be developed, etc. Cool, I see your point. I'm not trying to advocate a change, just wondering the reasoning behind the license. Thanks for the Info and keep up the good work. Keith Preston -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.crosswire.org/pipermail/sword-devel/attachments/20070716/f8c643dd/attachment.html From chrislit at crosswire.org Mon Jul 16 09:34:45 2007 From: chrislit at crosswire.org (Chris Little) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2007 09:34:45 -0700 Subject: [sword-devel] GPL 3 licencing issues In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <469B9E25.1080507@crosswire.org> It's probably time we (or maybe just Troy) decided how we feel about GPL3. The final version does seem to have addressed the more onerous issues of the drafts and there are enough significant GPL2 projects changing over to GPL3 that I would feel comfortable with Sword doing likewise. I think we should drop the "or any later version" language from all of the files that CrossWire owns, and change everything to specific license versions. If we did go the GPL3 route, we should probably dual license under GPL2 and GPL3 for at least a few years so as not to force front-end developers to change licenses (at least not yet). Another option is to write a GPL (2 or 3) derivative license that adds some additional restrictions to prevent some of the commercial abuses of our software that we've seen in the past: restrictions against changing the software title to hide its identity, restrictions against embedding ad banners, a requirement that CrossWire be notified prior to distribution of derivative works, etc. --Chris Eeli Kaikkonen wrote: > Sword library source code has some licencing issues. Different files > have different licence statements. They should be reviewed and > corrected. > > The problem is mostly theoretical because nobody really cares - the > library is under GPL and that's that. But there may arise issues later > with GPL 3. Some of you may already know that GPL 2 and 3 are NOT > compatible. That may sound weird but that's how it is. The only thing > which makes them compatible is the copyright notice which is not part of > the licence. If it reads "relased under GPL v 2 or later" it's > compatible. If it reads "released under GPL" it is unclear. If it reads > "released under GPL; see the attached licence" and the GPL v 2 is > attached it is technically GPL 2 only and not compatible with version 3. > > Inside Crosswire this is not important because we don't sue ourselves > because of inconsistency. But if and when we use other libraries inside > Sword library and when the frontend projects use many different > libraries this may become an issue. > > Most probably we want the Sword licence to be "under GPL v. 2 or any > later version" to secure the widest compatibility possible. Even after > that the library or the frontends can not use two libraries of which one > is under GPL2 only and the other GPL3 only. > > Yours, > Eeli Kaikkonen (Mr.), Oulu, Finland > e-mail: eekaikko at mailx.studentx.oulux.fix (with no x) > > _______________________________________________ > sword-devel mailing list: sword-devel at crosswire.org > http://www.crosswire.org/mailman/listinfo/sword-devel > Instructions to unsubscribe/change your settings at above page From eekaikko at mail.student.oulu.fi Mon Jul 16 10:15:30 2007 From: eekaikko at mail.student.oulu.fi (Eeli Kaikkonen) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2007 20:15:30 +0300 (EEST) Subject: [sword-devel] GPL 3 licencing issues In-Reply-To: <469B9E25.1080507@crosswire.org> References: <469B9E25.1080507@crosswire.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 16 Jul 2007, Chris Little wrote: > Another option is to write a GPL (2 or 3) derivative license that adds > some additional restrictions to prevent some of the commercial abuses of > our software that we've seen in the past: restrictions against changing > the software title to hide its identity, restrictions against embedding > ad banners, a requirement that CrossWire be notified prior to > distribution of derivative works, etc. That would be a very bad idea. It would make Sword non-Free and would prohibit Linux distros like Debian distributing it. I definitely would stop developing BibleTime (and other Sword related software) after that. Yours, Eeli Kaikkonen (Mr.), Oulu, Finland e-mail: eekaikko at mailx.studentx.oulux.fix (with no x) From chrislit at crosswire.org Mon Jul 16 10:52:40 2007 From: chrislit at crosswire.org (Chris Little) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2007 10:52:40 -0700 Subject: [sword-devel] =?windows-1252?q?French_ligatures_in_Louis_S=C9GOND?= =?windows-1252?q?=92s_text?= In-Reply-To: References: <877ip24f0d.fsf@negro.diretriz.dyndns.org.> <4699C841.8050909@crosswire.org> <873azp3zin.fsf@negro.diretriz.dyndns.org.> <469B0D23.60700@crosswire.org> Message-ID: <469BB068.1010907@crosswire.org> DM Smith wrote: > Doesn't ICU have locale sensitive decomposition (or transliteration)? > If it does then why can't we use the language of the module to set > the locale then decompose. This is what we are planning to do for > JSword (it has been on the todo list for years). I don't see anything like this in ICU. I couldn't find anything in the API docs and there's nothing in the locale files themselves. I think our best option may be to tag words on a per module basis with alternative forms and then index the forms as alternates with Lucene, as your last post suggested. For non-Lucene searches we can normalize the text & search strings via the strip filters as Troy suggests. Someone else would have to provide the code side of things, but in terms of markup, I think we just want to do something along the lines of: c?ur And the strip filter (for non-Lucene searches) will just replace that with "couer". --Chris From jhphx at cox.net Mon Jul 16 11:32:43 2007 From: jhphx at cox.net (jhphx) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2007 11:32:43 -0700 Subject: [sword-devel] GPL 3 licencing issues In-Reply-To: <469B9E25.1080507@crosswire.org> References: <469B9E25.1080507@crosswire.org> Message-ID: <469BB9CB.4060309@cox.net> Chris Little wrote: > Another option is to write a GPL (2 or 3) derivative license that adds > some additional restrictions ... Can you include work released under 2 or 3 that was licensed without the additional restrictions in a work that has the additional restrictions. I didn't think that kind of thing was allowed. Is that a "compatible" license? It has been a long time since I have looked at this. Jerry From chrislit at crosswire.org Mon Jul 16 12:32:12 2007 From: chrislit at crosswire.org (Chris Little) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2007 12:32:12 -0700 Subject: [sword-devel] GPL 3 licencing issues In-Reply-To: References: <469B9E25.1080507@crosswire.org> Message-ID: <469BC7BC.609@crosswire.org> Eeli Kaikkonen wrote: > On Mon, 16 Jul 2007, Chris Little wrote: >> Another option is to write a GPL (2 or 3) derivative license that adds >> some additional restrictions to prevent some of the commercial abuses of >> our software that we've seen in the past: restrictions against changing >> the software title to hide its identity, restrictions against embedding >> ad banners, a requirement that CrossWire be notified prior to >> distribution of derivative works, etc. > > > That would be a very bad idea. It would make Sword non-Free and would > prohibit Linux distros like Debian distributing it. I definitely would > stop developing BibleTime (and other Sword related software) after that. Whether the license would still result in free software would depend on the actual license terms. Of the three examples I listed, only the second, if written as an explicit prohibition on the "freedom" to embed adware, would result in non-free software. The others are entirely permissible in free software, at least as defined by Debian. I think I'd also add a requirement that distributors notify users that the software is free and include attribution and a link to CrossWire. --Chris From chrislit at crosswire.org Mon Jul 16 12:44:03 2007 From: chrislit at crosswire.org (Chris Little) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2007 12:44:03 -0700 Subject: [sword-devel] GPL 3 licencing issues In-Reply-To: <469BB9CB.4060309@cox.net> References: <469B9E25.1080507@crosswire.org> <469BB9CB.4060309@cox.net> Message-ID: <469BCA83.307@crosswire.org> jhphx wrote: > Can you include work released under 2 or 3 that was licensed without the > additional restrictions in a work that has the additional restrictions. > I didn't think that kind of thing was allowed. Is that a "compatible" > license? It has been a long time since I have looked at this. I'm not sure. I'd have to re-read the GPL, but it would obviously depend on the actual terms of the modified license. We might have to replace non-CrossWire GPL code in Sword if we changed the license--which would not be a big deal. There's also the possibility of just licensing BibleCS under a modified license since it's really only the Windows software (BibleCS and Bible Desktop) that have been or are very likely to be abused by commercial interests. --Chris From eekaikko at mail.student.oulu.fi Mon Jul 16 14:33:19 2007 From: eekaikko at mail.student.oulu.fi (Eeli Kaikkonen) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 00:33:19 +0300 (EEST) Subject: [sword-devel] GPL 3 licencing issues In-Reply-To: <469BC7BC.609@crosswire.org> References: <469B9E25.1080507@crosswire.org> <469BC7BC.609@crosswire.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 16 Jul 2007, Chris Little wrote: > Whether the license would still result in free software would depend on > the actual license terms. Of the three examples I listed, only the > second, if written as an explicit prohibition on the "freedom" to embed > adware, would result in non-free software. The others are entirely > permissible in free software, at least as defined by Debian. > > I think I'd also add a requirement that distributors notify users that > the software is free and include attribution and a link to CrossWire. These terms (except the second one), or something like these, seem to be possible under GPL 3 (see section 7). I strongly advice against anything which is incompatible with GPL. I cannot be sure but I think that someone who is willing to circumvent the GPL 2 or 3 licence would do the same thing with any licence as long as the source code is available and he can modify the program. Usually extra restrictions and rules hurt only those who obey the rules, not those who break them. Also, Rom. 12:19-20. Any of us don't actually loose anything even if someone sells our software illegally. Why should we then be bitter when we know that he is responsible in front of God the Judge? Yours, Eeli Kaikkonen (Mr.), Oulu, Finland e-mail: eekaikko at mailx.studentx.oulux.fix (with no x) From scribe at crosswire.org Mon Jul 16 15:57:34 2007 From: scribe at crosswire.org (Troy A. Griffitts) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2007 16:57:34 -0600 Subject: [sword-devel] =?utf-8?q?French_ligatures_in_Louis_S=C3=89GOND?= =?utf-8?b?4oCZcyB0ZXh0?= Message-ID: <1ed5570f98f35a4eede77cb56290576d@crosswire.org> Just a quick note. Our lucene indexing code does call all our strip filters. The solution and example I provided in my last email was using lucene indexes. Chris Little wrote: > > >DM Smith wrote: >> Doesn't ICU have locale sensitive decomposition (or transliteration)? >> If it does then why can't we use the language of the module to set >> the locale then decompose. This is what we are planning to do for >> JSword (it has been on the todo list for years). > >I don't see anything like this in ICU. I couldn't find anything in the >API docs and there's nothing in the locale files themselves. > >I think our best option may be to tag words on a per module basis with >alternative forms and then index the forms as alternates with Lucene, as > your last post suggested. For non-Lucene searches we can normalize the >text & search strings via the strip filters as Troy suggests. > >Someone else would have to provide the code side of things, but in terms >of markup, I think we just want to do something along the lines of: > >c?ur > >And the strip filter (for non-Lucene searches) will just replace that >with "couer". > >--Chris > > > >_______________________________________________ >sword-devel mailing list: sword-devel at crosswire.org >http://www.crosswire.org/mailman/listinfo/sword-devel >Instructions to unsubscribe/change your settings at above page > > From scribe at crosswire.org Mon Jul 16 16:08:15 2007 From: scribe at crosswire.org (Troy A. Griffitts) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2007 17:08:15 -0600 Subject: [sword-devel] GPL 3 licencing issues Message-ID: <85b830a04927031bc8740af889b907bb@crosswire.org> Well, because we have to answer the support emails, e.g. "I purchases your software and it doesn't work" from many unfortunate ThinkAll consumers. Though I agree with Chris that we likely only want to add restrictions to BibleCS if do decide to go that route. Eeli Kaikkonen wrote: >On Mon, 16 Jul 2007, Chris Little wrote: >> Whether the license would still result in free software would depend on >> the actual license terms. Of the three examples I listed, only the >> second, if written as an explicit prohibition on the "freedom" to embed >> adware, would result in non-free software. The others are entirely >> permissible in free software, at least as defined by Debian. >> >> I think I'd also add a requirement that distributors notify users that >> the software is free and include attribution and a link to CrossWire. > >These terms (except the second one), or something like these, seem to be >possible under GPL 3 (see section 7). I strongly advice against anything >which is incompatible with GPL. > >I cannot be sure but I think that someone who is willing to circumvent >the GPL 2 or 3 licence would do the same thing with any licence as long >as the source code is available and he can modify the program. > >Usually extra restrictions and rules hurt only those who obey the rules, >not those who break them. > >Also, Rom. 12:19-20. > >Any of us don't actually loose anything even if someone sells our >software illegally. Why should we then be bitter when we know that he is >responsible in front of God the Judge? > > Yours, > Eeli Kaikkonen (Mr.), Oulu, Finland > e-mail: eekaikko at mailx.studentx.oulux.fix (with no x) > >_______________________________________________ >sword-devel mailing list: sword-devel at crosswire.org >http://www.crosswire.org/mailman/listinfo/sword-devel >Instructions to unsubscribe/change your settings at above page > > From scribe at crosswire.org Mon Jul 16 16:25:06 2007 From: scribe at crosswire.org (Troy A. Griffitts) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2007 17:25:06 -0600 Subject: [sword-devel] GPL 3 licencing issues Message-ID: <7d5ccb5034563a3bea2ab44416f3951e@crosswire.org> Sorry for all the typos and 'top-posting', but I'm at work so this will also be a quick comment. 1) I had thought I removed all the 'or later versions' from all the files a few years back, as it seemed too open-ended. 2) Jason Galyon pointed out the possibility of companies asking us for a special license. We advertise on our website our willingness to do this in certain circumstances. 3) To facilitate #2, CrossWire has always had a transfer of ownership policy for our base repository of code. All code in our repository is (C) CrossWire Bible Society under terms of the GPL, instead of "(C) by various authors of this code". Without requiring tranfer of ownership it would make it impractical to say we could offer other licensing options or even that we could change the licensing in the future. If transfer of ownership policy scares you, remember that you don't give up your ownership of your own code, you merely give CrossWire full ownership priviledges, as well. -Troy. "Troy A. Griffitts" wrote: >Well, because we have to answer the support emails, e.g. "I purchases >your >software and it doesn't work" from many unfortunate ThinkAll consumers. >Though I agree with Chris that we likely only want to add restrictions to >BibleCS if do decide to go that route. > >Eeli Kaikkonen wrote: >>On Mon, 16 Jul 2007, Chris Little wrote: >>> Whether the license would still result in free software would depend on >>> the actual license terms. Of the three examples I listed, only the >>> second, if written as an explicit prohibition on the "freedom" to embed >>> adware, would result in non-free software. The others are entirely >>> permissible in free software, at least as defined by Debian. >>> >>> I think I'd also add a requirement that distributors notify users that >>> the software is free and include attribution and a link to CrossWire. >> >>These terms (except the second one), or something like these, seem to be >>possible under GPL 3 (see section 7). I strongly advice against anything >>which is incompatible with GPL. >> >>I cannot be sure but I think that someone who is willing to circumvent >>the GPL 2 or 3 licence would do the same thing with any licence as long >>as the source code is available and he can modify the program. >> >>Usually extra restrictions and rules hurt only those who obey the rules, >>not those who break them. >> >>Also, Rom. 12:19-20. >> >>Any of us don't actually loose anything even if someone sells our >>software illegally. Why should we then be bitter when we know that he is >>responsible in front of God the Judge? >> >> Yours, >> Eeli Kaikkonen (Mr.), Oulu, Finland >> e-mail: eekaikko at mailx.studentx.oulux.fix (with no x) >> >>_______________________________________________ >>sword-devel mailing list: sword-devel at crosswire.org >>http://www.crosswire.org/mailman/listinfo/sword-devel >>Instructions to unsubscribe/change your settings at above page >> >> > > > >_______________________________________________ >sword-devel mailing list: sword-devel at crosswire.org >http://www.crosswire.org/mailman/listinfo/sword-devel >Instructions to unsubscribe/change your settings at above page > > From jonathon.blake at gmail.com Mon Jul 16 16:51:05 2007 From: jonathon.blake at gmail.com (jonathon) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2007 23:51:05 +0000 Subject: [sword-devel] GPL 3 licencing issues In-Reply-To: <469B9E25.1080507@crosswire.org> References: <469B9E25.1080507@crosswire.org> Message-ID: <469C0469.6050901@gmail.com> Chris Little wrote: > some additional restrictions to prevent some of the commercial abuses of > our software that we've seen in the past: a) Have those commercial abusers violated the GNU GPL. If so, what action was taken against them? b) The advantage of GPL 3.0, is that it more clearly delineates that a license violation is a copyright violation, and as such, statutory damages can be applied. xan jonathon From jerickson314 at users.sourceforge.net Mon Jul 16 17:16:12 2007 From: jerickson314 at users.sourceforge.net (Jeremy Erickson) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2007 19:16:12 -0500 Subject: [sword-devel] GPL 3 licencing issues In-Reply-To: <469BCA83.307@crosswire.org> References: <469BB9CB.4060309@cox.net> <469BCA83.307@crosswire.org> Message-ID: <200707161916.13004.jerickson314@users.sourceforge.net> IANAL, but my understanding is that the GPLv2 only allows code under the GPLv2 (or a license such as BSD/MIT which permits everyhing the GPL does) to be linked with GPL'd code. The GPLv3 has wording in section 7 to explicitly allow linking from MIT/BSD/etc., as well as allowing certain restrictions not normally found in the GPL. So, my understanding is that if the Sword license gained extra restrictions like the ones mentioned, it would become illegal to link Sword with GPLv2 code, and probably GPLv3 code as well (for any restriction not in Section 7). That means that BibleTime 2 on Windows with such a Sword library would be illegal, because BibleTime 2 will link with Qt 4, which is available only under the GPL on some platforms (unless we wanted to fork out lots of cash for a commercial license, which is unrealistic.) Trolltech's license will not permit us to link Qt with code containing restrictions not in the GPL, even indirectly (i.e. the same app linking both libraries.) And the GPL makes it clear that if we allowed full GPL for Sword with respect to BibleTime, we have to allow full GPL for everything. I don't think that adding these restrictions is an option without killing off BibleTime, which is obviously not a good option. Although I personally like simple permissive licenses for many projects, my personal opinion is that a GPLv2/GPLv3 dual-license would be the most appropriate option for Sword. This allows the maximum usage of Sword by free software while nonetheless preventing proprietary software from using it. However, it's ultimately not my decision. I will respect whatever decision is made (just don't kill BibleTime.) -Jeremy Erickson On Monday 16 July 2007 2:44:03 pm Chris Little wrote: > jhphx wrote: > > Can you include work released under 2 or 3 that was licensed without the > > additional restrictions in a work that has the additional restrictions. > > I didn't think that kind of thing was allowed. Is that a "compatible" > > license? It has been a long time since I have looked at this. > > I'm not sure. I'd have to re-read the GPL, but it would obviously depend > on the actual terms of the modified license. We might have to replace > non-CrossWire GPL code in Sword if we changed the license--which would > not be a big deal. > > There's also the possibility of just licensing BibleCS under a modified > license since it's really only the Windows software (BibleCS and Bible > Desktop) that have been or are very likely to be abused by commercial > interests. > > --Chris > > _______________________________________________ > sword-devel mailing list: sword-devel at crosswire.org > http://www.crosswire.org/mailman/listinfo/sword-devel > Instructions to unsubscribe/change your settings at above page From jonathon.blake at gmail.com Mon Jul 16 17:58:58 2007 From: jonathon.blake at gmail.com (jonathon) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 00:58:58 +0000 Subject: [sword-devel] GPL 3 licencing issues In-Reply-To: <7d5ccb5034563a3bea2ab44416f3951e@crosswire.org> References: <7d5ccb5034563a3bea2ab44416f3951e@crosswire.org> Message-ID: <469C1452.9060700@gmail.com> Troy A. Griffitts wrote: > scares you, remember that you don't give up your ownership of your own code, > you merely give CrossWire full ownership priviledges, as well. Can I get a clarification here. If an organization contributes code to Crosswire, Crosswire can use it under the GPL 2.0 (or 3.0). The organization that contributes the code can continue to use their code under whatever licence the organization contributing the code distributes their product under. EG: I write a bible study program, and decide to include a lectionary. I can contribute the lectionary code to CrossWire, which will further distribute it under the GPL. I can continue to distribute my Bible study program, under whatever licence I have chosen. Or have I misunderstood something? xan jonathon From scribe at crosswire.org Mon Jul 16 17:44:38 2007 From: scribe at crosswire.org (Troy A. Griffitts) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2007 18:44:38 -0600 Subject: [sword-devel] GPL 3 licencing issues Message-ID: <56b3fa4605bc0655116924dbf9624dbb@crosswire.org> Jonathon, Yes, you are correct. If your organization decides to contribute code to CrossWire, you grant CrossWire full ownership rights to the contribution. This effectively lets CrossWire do whatever they want with it. If they decide to grant, say, the United Bible Societies permission to use the code in a project like, say, Fieldworks, even though Fieldworks is currently not opensource, then CrossWire has that perogative. Granting CrossWire full ownership rights of your contribution does not take away your full ownership rights to do whatever you choose with your code. Your organization can release your code under whatever license you wish. -Troy. jonathon wrote: >Troy A. Griffitts wrote: > >> scares you, remember that you don't give up your ownership of your own >code, >> you merely give CrossWire full ownership priviledges, as well. > >Can I get a clarification here. > >If an organization contributes code to Crosswire, Crosswire >can use it under the GPL 2.0 (or 3.0). > >The organization that contributes the code can continue to >use their code under whatever licence the organization >contributing the code distributes their product under. > >EG: I write a bible study program, and decide to include a >lectionary. I can contribute the lectionary code to >CrossWire, which will further distribute it under the GPL. >I can continue to distribute my Bible study program, under >whatever licence I have chosen. > >Or have I misunderstood something? > >xan > >jonathon > > > >_______________________________________________ >sword-devel mailing list: sword-devel at crosswire.org >http://www.crosswire.org/mailman/listinfo/sword-devel >Instructions to unsubscribe/change your settings at above page > > From alonso.graterol at gmail.com Mon Jul 16 18:49:39 2007 From: alonso.graterol at gmail.com (Alonso Graterol) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2007 21:49:39 -0400 Subject: [sword-devel] International characters Message-ID: Hello, I'm using BibleDesktop in Spanish, language which uses accented characters. I also prepared a reading plan that with the help of Karl Kleinpaste's "BuildModule" script I was able to use with BD. In version 1.0.6 I used the plan without any accented character in linked passages because it seemed the English version bible was coded as reference for passage search and link, even for Spanish bible. I recall international characters were not shown appropriately all the time. Now in version 1.0.7 Spanish bible reads very well, I like specially the paragraph separation. But now my reading plan does not work, that is, it shows up in BD but the link to the passage does not work. It won't work if I either use accented or non-accented characters. As an example, "Genesis 40-42" would work in version 1.0.6 but in version 1.0.7 either "Genesis 40-42" or "G?nesis 40-42" (Spanish) does not work. Besides, accented characters show up garbled in passage's link panel. As an example, character "?" would show as a small square... Any ideas? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.crosswire.org/pipermail/sword-devel/attachments/20070716/47d3f153/attachment.html From dhowens at pmbx.net Mon Jul 16 19:06:48 2007 From: dhowens at pmbx.net (Daniel Owens) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 09:06:48 +0700 Subject: [sword-devel] Sword CE In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <469C2438.8070908@pmbx.net> I'm in the same situation. I would like to use Pocket Sword Reader, but there are a few problems with it. To name a couple, there isn't an obvious way to change the font for the display, so anything other than basic Latin characters does not display properly (e.g., Vietnamese, Hebrew, Greek with accents). Also, the program doesn't open properly--you have to go to the "Running Programs" dialog to have it appear on the screen. Finally, the icon doesn't appear with the link in the Start menu. Given that it uses the same modules as desktop front-ends, it would be fantastic to see it working well. I am not a developer, but if there is any way I can help, I am willing to pitch in. Daniel Owens > Is swordce dead? I do not see it in the trunk. I am new to Sword. I would like to be able to use Sword on my Motorola Q and would be willing to help. > > Al Sites > > _______________________________________________ > sword-devel mailing list: sword-devel at crosswire.org > http://www.crosswire.org/mailman/listinfo/sword-devel > Instructions to unsubscribe/change your settings at above page > > From dhowens at pmbx.net Mon Jul 16 19:45:19 2007 From: dhowens at pmbx.net (Daniel Owens) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 09:45:19 +0700 Subject: [sword-devel] Translating Bible Desktop in Vietnamese Message-ID: <469C2D3F.8010201@pmbx.net> I recently discovered a website in Vietnam that mentions Bible Desktop. I would love to see the modules in Vietnamese to grow, and having a Vietnamese language locale would be beneficial in asking for cooperation from copyright holders. I am willing to do the translation or hire someone to do it. I just need some direction about how to do that. Daniel Owens From scribe at crosswire.org Mon Jul 16 21:07:15 2007 From: scribe at crosswire.org (Troy A. Griffitts) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2007 21:07:15 -0700 Subject: [sword-devel] Sword CE In-Reply-To: <469C2438.8070908@pmbx.net> References: <469C2438.8070908@pmbx.net> Message-ID: <469C4073.7090204@crosswire.org> Hey Guys, I have also desired to update SwordReader. I am excited to hear about both of your interests. The code is in svn here: http://crosswire.org/svn/swordreader/trunk/ It would be nice to first get it compiled with the latest engine. Also we get support emails because some devices don't have the same path to the 'Programs' folder so the prebuilt sword.conf file doesn't point to the correct place. Not sure of a good solution for this. We could at least add 'AugmentPath' entries for the most wellknown locations. Anyway, let me know if you need help getting things compiled. -Troy. Daniel Owens wrote: > I'm in the same situation. I would like to use Pocket Sword Reader, but > there are a few problems with it. To name a couple, there isn't an > obvious way to change the font for the display, so anything other than > basic Latin characters does not display properly (e.g., Vietnamese, > Hebrew, Greek with accents). Also, the program doesn't open > properly--you have to go to the "Running Programs" dialog to have it > appear on the screen. Finally, the icon doesn't appear with the link in > the Start menu. Given that it uses the same modules as desktop > front-ends, it would be fantastic to see it working well. I am not a > developer, but if there is any way I can help, I am willing to pitch in. > > Daniel Owens >> Is swordce dead? I do not see it in the trunk. I am new to Sword. I would like to be able to use Sword on my Motorola Q and would be willing to help. >> >> Al Sites >> >> _______________________________________________ >> sword-devel mailing list: sword-devel at crosswire.org >> http://www.crosswire.org/mailman/listinfo/sword-devel >> Instructions to unsubscribe/change your settings at above page >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > sword-devel mailing list: sword-devel at crosswire.org > http://www.crosswire.org/mailman/listinfo/sword-devel > Instructions to unsubscribe/change your settings at above page From chrislit at crosswire.org Mon Jul 16 23:52:57 2007 From: chrislit at crosswire.org (Chris Little) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2007 23:52:57 -0700 Subject: [sword-devel] GPL 3 licencing issues In-Reply-To: References: <469B9E25.1080507@crosswire.org> <469BC7BC.609@crosswire.org> Message-ID: <469C6749.6090607@crosswire.org> Eeli Kaikkonen wrote: > Any of us don't actually loose anything even if someone sells our > software illegally. Why should we then be bitter when we know that he is > responsible in front of God the Judge? I'm not looking to get a cut of the profits for myself or Troy or CrossWire or anything like that. And it's not that I would fight against someone selling the software if they obeyed the license and were forthcoming about its identity. But I do have issues with people who hide the fact that our software is free to download and hide the fact that we made it, as with ThinkAll, who slapped a $60 "retail" price on BibleCS. I guess I'm bitter about our users being ripped off. Also, historically, the two groups who distributed Sword illegally and/or against our wishes never updated their work. So they kept distributing work that was 1-2 versions behind. If we can prevent that, it's a service to our users. --Chris From eekaikko at mail.student.oulu.fi Tue Jul 17 02:54:36 2007 From: eekaikko at mail.student.oulu.fi (Eeli Kaikkonen) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 12:54:36 +0300 (EEST) Subject: [sword-devel] GPL 3 licencing issues In-Reply-To: <200707161916.13004.jerickson314@users.sourceforge.net> References: <469BB9CB.4060309@cox.net> <469BCA83.307@crosswire.org> <200707161916.13004.jerickson314@users.sourceforge.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 16 Jul 2007, Jeremy Erickson wrote: > That means that BibleTime 2 on Windows with such a Sword library would be > illegal, because BibleTime 2 will link with Qt 4, which is available only > under the GPL on some platforms (unless we wanted to fork out lots of cash > for a commercial license, which is unrealistic.) Trolltech's license will > not permit us to link Qt with code containing restrictions not in the GPL, > even indirectly (i.e. the same app linking both libraries.) Actually this article made me write my original message: http://www.kdedevelopers.org/node/2881 It is about the same question you are talking about. > I don't think that adding these restrictions is an option without killing off > BibleTime, which is obviously not a good option. Let's be realistic: for Windows there are already many freely downloadable Bible study applications. BibleCS is not even one of the best. If BibleCS and BibleDesktop disappeared people could just start using other programs, like e-sword. But for Linux BibleTime, GnomeSword (and BibleDesktop) are the only options - at least I don't know any other. Making those programs unavailable would really hurt many people because they wouldn't have possibility to read the Bible with a computer. This becomes even more important if Linux user base grows in the third world. Just like with paper Bibles, we are blessed with abundancy, but there are millions of persons who can't afford even one. We are declined to think about NIV etc. as very important and I also think they are - but only if we are thinking about our user base in Western countries. Yours, Eeli Kaikkonen (Mr.), Oulu, Finland e-mail: eekaikko at mailx.studentx.oulux.fix (with no x) From mg.pub at gmx.net Tue Jul 17 03:06:55 2007 From: mg.pub at gmx.net (Martin Gruner) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 12:06:55 +0200 Subject: [sword-devel] GPL 3 licencing issues In-Reply-To: References: <469BB9CB.4060309@cox.net> <469BCA83.307@crosswire.org> <200707161916.13004.jerickson314@users.sourceforge.net> Message-ID: <1972479274.20070717120655@gmx.net> > This becomes even more important if Linux user base grows in the third > world. Just like with paper Bibles, we are blessed with abundancy, but > there are millions of persons who can't afford even one. We are declined > to think about NIV etc. as very important and I also think they are - > but only if we are thinking about our user base in Western countries. I feel the same. mg From eekaikko at mail.student.oulu.fi Tue Jul 17 03:10:09 2007 From: eekaikko at mail.student.oulu.fi (Eeli Kaikkonen) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 13:10:09 +0300 (EEST) Subject: [sword-devel] GPL 3 licencing issues In-Reply-To: <469C6749.6090607@crosswire.org> References: <469B9E25.1080507@crosswire.org> <469BC7BC.609@crosswire.org> <469C6749.6090607@crosswire.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 16 Jul 2007, Chris Little wrote: > > > Eeli Kaikkonen wrote: > > Any of us don't actually loose anything even if someone sells our > > software illegally. Why should we then be bitter when we know that he is > > responsible in front of God the Judge? > > I'm not looking to get a cut of the profits for myself or Troy or > CrossWire or anything like that. And it's not that I would fight against > someone selling the software if they obeyed the license and were > forthcoming about its identity. But I do have issues with people who > hide the fact that our software is free to download and hide the fact > that we made it, as with ThinkAll, who slapped a $60 "retail" price on > BibleCS. I guess I'm bitter about our users being ripped off. > > Also, historically, the two groups who distributed Sword illegally > and/or against our wishes never updated their work. So they kept > distributing work that was 1-2 versions behind. If we can prevent that, > it's a service to our users. I must say I agree with you. But still I doubt if changing the licence is the right way to prevent abuse. If those people sold the software illegally, why would different licence stop them? If they didn't understand the licence and our wishes, we could make these things clear in the copyright statement (now it just states something like "this is free software, see GPL etc." I guess). If they are not programmers we could add so clear copyright and "THIS PROGRAM IS FREE" statements into the interactive user interface that those "freeriders" wouldn't dare to sell it to ignorant users. If they sell the software illegally against the licence, i.e. not giving the source code and hiding the free origins, we should take actions, not change the licence. I think that even GPL 2, not mentioning 3, makes it clear enough that the origin of the software, the freedom of it, the licence, and the source code must NOT be hidden. If there is any doubt about that we could even ask from FSF. We could also tell the situation to them and ask what would be the strongest possible restrictions under GPL3 section 7 which still would be GPL3 compatible. Can someone tell exactly how those thieves acted? Yours, Eeli Kaikkonen (Mr.), Oulu, Finland e-mail: eekaikko at mailx.studentx.oulux.fix (with no x) From jonathon.blake at gmail.com Tue Jul 17 04:53:11 2007 From: jonathon.blake at gmail.com (jonathon) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 11:53:11 +0000 Subject: [sword-devel] GPL 3 licencing issues In-Reply-To: References: <469BB9CB.4060309@cox.net> <469BCA83.307@crosswire.org> <200707161916.13004.jerickson314@users.sourceforge.net> Message-ID: <469CADA7.3070404@gmail.com> Eeli Kaikkonen wrote: > If BibleCS and BibleDesktop disappeared people could just start > using other programs, like e-sword. People might not even notice that they had disappeared from Windows. There are a plethora of free (gratis) Bible Study programs, and almost as many commercially distributed programs. > But for Linux BibleTime, GnomeSword (and BibleDesktop) are the only > options - at least I don't know any other. If there are any others, they haven't made it into any of the Linux distributions. [With three Linux distributions orientated towards Christians,I'd expect any others to be in at least one of them.] > This becomes even more important if Linux user base grows in the third world. Imagine your preacher having a KJV that did not contain a concordance, cross references, or any textual apparatus. Change the translation, and you are describing the standard Bible for minority languages everywhere. > but only if we are thinking about our user base in Western countries. +1 How many people realize that the study tools included in GnomeSword are more comprehensive than the tools that Bible College graduates in some third world countries own? ######### The other issues are: * What will happen to the programs for the various PDA platforms? * What are the odds of a vendor hijacking a PDA version into a commercial program? ######## Does anybody have a list of Bible Study Software that is distributed under the GNU GPL, or other Open Source Licence? xan jonathon From dmsmith555 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 17 05:15:58 2007 From: dmsmith555 at yahoo.com (DM Smith) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 08:15:58 -0400 Subject: [sword-devel] GPL 3 licencing issues In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <438D5274-2EAC-48E1-A0B5-E1C1301834BB@yahoo.com> My opinion (and I may be wrong on any of this). We should not "upgrade" the license unless we are solving a problem or need. We have lots of other things to work on. The licenses should be compared to see what the differences are and whether it contributes anything. I read v3 a while back (long before it was finalized) and it appeared to be addressing tivolization, patent and drm issues, but otherwise looked pretty much the same. (see Richard Stallman's http://www.gnu.org/licenses/rms-why- gplv3.html for an overview of the differences) We won't need to upgrade until we want to link with v3 licensed software. We would also need to see if other 3-rd party software is compatible with the upgrade (assuming that it is compatible with v2). For a complete listing of compatibility see: http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/ license-list.html Note: this is the list for v3. The list for v2 was different. I don't know what the differences are, but I hear that Apache (ASF) is compatible with v3 but not v2. Note the last paragraph that discusses the "or later" phrase. It also allows the CrossWire model of single ownership. Having "or later" does not solve the compatibility issue. It merely allows the license to be upgraded. The GPL in any version or flavor is *not* a theft deterrent. It is a legal document, useful for people who care what the license says/ means. Ultimately, as a non-income organization, we have little recourse beyond prayer and appealing to people to honor the license. As I read it, It is still a distribution license. I don't see that the GPL protects software in the following ways: 1) If software is not distributed, then the source does not have to be either. I think it is an open question whether "software as a service" constitutes distribution. 2) It does not prevent forking, re-branding or hiding origination. 3) It does not prevent using it as a plug-in in a non-GPL application. In His Service, DM On Jul 16, 2007, at 5:26 AM, Eeli Kaikkonen wrote: > Sword library source code has some licencing issues. Different files > have different licence statements. They should be reviewed and > corrected. > > The problem is mostly theoretical because nobody really cares - the > library is under GPL and that's that. But there may arise issues later > with GPL 3. Some of you may already know that GPL 2 and 3 are NOT > compatible. That may sound weird but that's how it is. The only thing > which makes them compatible is the copyright notice which is not > part of > the licence. If it reads "relased under GPL v 2 or later" it's > compatible. If it reads "released under GPL" it is unclear. If it > reads > "released under GPL; see the attached licence" and the GPL v 2 is > attached it is technically GPL 2 only and not compatible with > version 3. > > Inside Crosswire this is not important because we don't sue ourselves > because of inconsistency. But if and when we use other libraries > inside > Sword library and when the frontend projects use many different > libraries this may become an issue. > > Most probably we want the Sword licence to be "under GPL v. 2 or any > later version" to secure the widest compatibility possible. Even after > that the library or the frontends can not use two libraries of > which one > is under GPL2 only and the other GPL3 only. > > Yours, > Eeli Kaikkonen (Mr.), Oulu, Finland > e-mail: eekaikko at mailx.studentx.oulux.fix (with no x) > > _______________________________________________ > sword-devel mailing list: sword-devel at crosswire.org > http://www.crosswire.org/mailman/listinfo/sword-devel > Instructions to unsubscribe/change your settings at above page From eekaikko at mail.student.oulu.fi Tue Jul 17 06:00:13 2007 From: eekaikko at mail.student.oulu.fi (Eeli Kaikkonen) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 16:00:13 +0300 (EEST) Subject: [sword-devel] GPL 3 licencing issues In-Reply-To: <438D5274-2EAC-48E1-A0B5-E1C1301834BB@yahoo.com> References: <438D5274-2EAC-48E1-A0B5-E1C1301834BB@yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 17 Jul 2007, DM Smith wrote: > We should not "upgrade" the license unless we are solving a problem > or need. We have lots of other things to work on. I agree. > > The licenses should be compared to see what the differences are and > whether it contributes anything. I read v3 a while back (long before > it was finalized) and it appeared to be addressing tivolization, > patent and drm issues, but otherwise looked pretty much the same. > (see Richard Stallman's http://www.gnu.org/licenses/rms-why- > gplv3.html for an overview of the differences) Some small changes in wordings may be crucial for some issues. Section 7 in GPL 3 is new and may be crucial for the problems which Chris told about. > > We won't need to upgrade until we want to link with v3 licensed > software. That's true. > Having "or later" > does not solve the compatibility issue. It merely allows the license > to be upgraded. I'm not quite sure if I understand. After all it is effectively double licencing, and has not double licencing been one way to ensure compatibility with GPL? I mean, a library could be used in a GPL program if the library is licenced under both GPL and a non-compatible licence. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual_license. > > The GPL in any version or flavor is *not* a theft deterrent. It is a > legal document, useful for people who care what the license says/ > means. Ultimately, as a non-income organization, we have little > recourse beyond prayer and appealing to people to honor the license. And that is one reason why I think changing the licence is a bad idea. As I said in an earlier post, strict rules hurt good people, not bad people. Bad people can be hurt only by the Sword of the authorities (excuse my pun with Rom. 13:1-7). > 2) It does not prevent forking, re-branding or hiding origination. We have to check if the GPL 3 section 7 could prevent hiding origination. > 3) It does not prevent using it as a plug-in in a non-GPL application. That's true. If someone really wants to use Sword in a closed product it's possible to make an intermediate low-level frontend which runs in a separate process and communicates through a pipe. It's completely legal. Yours, Eeli Kaikkonen (Mr.), Oulu, Finland e-mail: eekaikko at mailx.studentx.oulux.fix (with no x) From dmsmith555 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 17 08:22:34 2007 From: dmsmith555 at yahoo.com (DM Smith) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 11:22:34 -0400 Subject: [sword-devel] GPL 3 licencing issues In-Reply-To: References: <438D5274-2EAC-48E1-A0B5-E1C1301834BB@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <469CDEBA.2030004@yahoo.com> I just re-read v3 and v2. Ouch, my head hurts. Some of v3, like section 3 just don't make any sense to me. I'm glad I am not a lawyer! Interestingly, both v2 and v3 require presenting the user with the license. I don't know if all our applications do this. I know when I install BT or GS via an RPM, I'm not presented with the license. According to the GPL, it then needs to be available via the program. v3 also stipulates that acceptance of the license is not necessary to use the software, but is necessary to re-distribute it. The BibleCS and BibleDesktop windows installers have it as a requirement to install. v3 also seems to require that a GPL program must make available all source code necessary to build and make it run, including all 3-rd party libraries (i.e. Corresponding Source), other than "System Libraries". I didn't see that in v2, though it may be in there in spirit. I'm not sure how this would affect us. See below for other response. Eeli Kaikkonen wrote: > On Tue, 17 Jul 2007, DM Smith wrote: >> Having "or later" >> does not solve the compatibility issue. It merely allows the license >> to be upgraded. >> > > I'm not quite sure if I understand. After all it is effectively double > licencing, and has not double licencing been one way to ensure > compatibility with GPL? I mean, a library could be used in a GPL program > if the library is licenced under both GPL and a non-compatible licence. > See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual_license. > Having re-read v2 and v3, I think that it allows the recipient to use it under a later version if desired, but not an earlier one. Thus, if it said v2 or later, it could be combined with v3 licensed code to make a v3 program. However, if it said v3 or later, then it could not be combined with v2 code (unless it had the "or later" clause). Effectively, this would mean that all the 3-rd party code that we use would have to be compatible with v3 for us to upgrade from v2. So to upgrade to v3, we would need to know if any products (at least any that we endorse/support) built from libsword have incompatible 3-rd party software. >> The GPL in any version or flavor is *not* a theft deterrent. It is a >> legal document, useful for people who care what the license says/ >> means. Ultimately, as a non-income organization, we have little >> recourse beyond prayer and appealing to people to honor the license. >> > > And that is one reason why I think changing the licence is a bad idea. > As I said in an earlier post, strict rules hurt good people, not bad > people. Bad people can be hurt only by the Sword of the authorities > (excuse my pun with Rom. 13:1-7). > > >> 2) It does not prevent forking, re-branding or hiding origination. >> > > We have to check if the GPL 3 section 7 could prevent hiding > origination. > v2 requires that modifications be clearly marked so that changes are not attributed to the original authors. I did not see a requirement to keep authorship intact. I don't understand enough about copyright laws to know whether copyright statements must be kept intact. v3 allows for the retention of authorship, copyright and legal statements. But it is necessary to modify the GPL with an addition per section 7. From karl at kleinpaste.org Tue Jul 17 08:48:50 2007 From: karl at kleinpaste.org (Karl Kleinpaste) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 11:48:50 -0400 Subject: [sword-devel] GPL 3 licencing issues In-Reply-To: <469CDEBA.2030004@yahoo.com> (DM Smith's message of "Tue, 17 Jul 2007 11:22:34 -0400") References: <438D5274-2EAC-48E1-A0B5-E1C1301834BB@yahoo.com> <469CDEBA.2030004@yahoo.com> Message-ID: DM Smith writes: > Interestingly, both v2 and v3 require presenting the user with the > license. I don't know if all our applications do this. I know when I > install BT or GS via an RPM, I'm not presented with the license. > According to the GPL, it then needs to be available via the program. In GnomeSword, license is referenced in the last section of the user manual, which is available in the menu bar via Help->Contents, incorporated via reference as an appendix in the "GNOME Users Guide." From davidslists at gmx.net Wed Jul 18 06:50:36 2007 From: davidslists at gmx.net (David (Mailing List Addy)) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 09:50:36 -0400 Subject: [sword-devel] GPL 3 licencing issues In-Reply-To: <469CDEBA.2030004@yahoo.com> References: <469CDEBA.2030004@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200707180950.36902.davidslists@gmx.net> On Tuesday 17 July 2007 11:22, DM Smith wrote: > nterestingly, both v2 and v3 require presenting the user with the > license. I don't know if all our applications do this. I know when I > install BT or GS via an RPM, I'm not presented with the license. > According to the GPL, it then needs to be available via the program. Correct, via the program. I seem to recall the about box being sufficient according to at least, v2 >v3 also seems to require that a GPL program must make available all >source code necessary to build and make it run, including all 3-rd party >libraries (i.e. Corresponding Source), other than "System Libraries". I >didn't see that in v2, though it may be in there in spirit. I'm not sure >how this would affect us. I don't believe it is in v2 even in spirit. This might be part of the so-called anti-tiviosation effort. This also might effect the hypothetical embedded device in another thread depending on what's called a "system library" From vivekcherian at gmail.com Sat Jul 21 09:12:34 2007 From: vivekcherian at gmail.com (Vivek Varghese Cherian ) Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2007 12:12:34 -0400 Subject: [sword-devel] Introducing myself Message-ID: <8cfc1d4c0707210912y5e99783ard0c9fa6e50cc0aa3@mail.gmail.com> Hi, I am Vivek Varghese Cherian, i use the nick vivekvc on freenode. I would like to contribute to the sword project in the capacity of a developer. I have had a chat with David Overcash (FunnyLookinHat) on #sword. He suggested that I download the code via svn which I have done. I am looking at areas that I can contribute to. Do you have any areas that require assistance ? -- VivekVC -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.crosswire.org/pipermail/sword-devel/attachments/20070721/57f99956/attachment.html From scribe at crosswire.org Sat Jul 21 23:02:44 2007 From: scribe at crosswire.org (Troy A. Griffitts) Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2007 23:02:44 -0700 Subject: [sword-devel] Introducing myself In-Reply-To: <8cfc1d4c0707210912y5e99783ard0c9fa6e50cc0aa3@mail.gmail.com> References: <8cfc1d4c0707210912y5e99783ard0c9fa6e50cc0aa3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46A2F304.3010704@crosswire.org> Welcome Vivek, Can you provide a little background information and maybe we can suggest something that matches your skills and desires. You can also have a look at: http://crosswire.org/bugs to see a list of outstanding issues. -Troy. Vivek Varghese Cherian wrote: > Hi, > > I am Vivek Varghese Cherian, i use the nick vivekvc on freenode. I would > like to contribute to the sword project in the capacity of a developer. > > I have had a chat with David Overcash (FunnyLookinHat) on #sword. He > suggested that I download the code via svn which I have done. > > I am looking at areas that I can contribute to. Do you have any areas > that require assistance ? > > > -- > VivekVC > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > sword-devel mailing list: sword-devel at crosswire.org > http://www.crosswire.org/mailman/listinfo/sword-devel > Instructions to unsubscribe/change your settings at above page From junkmail_5412 at comcast.net Sun Jul 22 13:01:18 2007 From: junkmail_5412 at comcast.net (Brian) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2007 20:01:18 +0000 Subject: [sword-devel] Updated KJV module. Closes BUG MOD-47. Message-ID: <072220072001.12764.46A3B78E0009BBD6000031DC2207021053CFCFCC9AB907B39DBD@comcast.net> I've fixed the verse in the KJV module. The patch and updated modules are attached to the bug report. Please double-check for correctness. Remember to update http://www.crosswire.org/~dmsmith/kjv2006/index.html Link to the bug report http://crosswire.org/bugs/browse/MOD-47 - Brian From vivekcherian at gmail.com Sun Jul 22 22:59:43 2007 From: vivekcherian at gmail.com (Vivek Varghese Cherian ) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 01:59:43 -0400 Subject: [sword-devel] Introducing myself In-Reply-To: <46A2F304.3010704@crosswire.org> References: <8cfc1d4c0707210912y5e99783ard0c9fa6e50cc0aa3@mail.gmail.com> <46A2F304.3010704@crosswire.org> Message-ID: <8cfc1d4c0707222259wcfe074dj41101026aecf5026@mail.gmail.com> On 7/22/07, Troy A. Griffitts wrote: > > Welcome Vivek, > > Can you provide a little background information and maybe we can suggest > something that matches your skills and desires. You can also have a > look at: > > http://crosswire.org/bugs > > to see a list of outstanding issues. > > -Troy. More about myself. I work for a company called DeepRoot Linux Pvt Ltd. My company encourages me to contribute to FOSS Projects as a way of contributing more to the FOSS Movement. I wanted to move into programming and I am told that Sword is coded in C++ and JSword in java. I am in the process of learning C,C++ and Java and meanwhile I would also like to contribute to the Sword project. I think i can start off with some small bug fixes and as I get understand the project and the developers better, you can assign me with more complicated bug fixes. --- Vivek Varghese Cherian -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.crosswire.org/pipermail/sword-devel/attachments/20070723/35b7bb14/attachment.html From anja.hofmann at ub.uni-tuebingen.de Mon Jul 23 02:32:07 2007 From: anja.hofmann at ub.uni-tuebingen.de (Anja Hofmann) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 11:32:07 +0200 Subject: [sword-devel] Virtual Library of Theology Message-ID: <46A47597.5040004@ub.uni-tuebingen.de> Hello! To introduce myself, my name is Anja Hofmann and I am currently working at the University of Tuebingen on a project called "Virtual Library of Theology" while doing a PhD in computational linguistics. The website is www.virtheo.de (note: not all pages have been translated into English yet). Since May, I have been reading this list and I have shown the BibleCS tool and the Sword Web /BibleTool interface to my colleague responsible for the theological content. What I would love to do: adding a full text search over existing bibles and other theological texts, that allows users to view translations and originals in parallel and to access dictionary entries directly from the text. There would be one public search interface and one for university members (including databases with licence restrictions). My colleague listened to my ideas, but thought that a. theologians (and other users) would search mainly based on content, not on linguistic criteria (such as e.g. all verb forms of "to give"). b. people would prefer to work with printed versions as they also need them for references. What are your experiences/opions? Thank you very much in advance. Yours sincerely, Anja Hofmann From arthurbolstad at sbcglobal.net Mon Jul 23 04:16:07 2007 From: arthurbolstad at sbcglobal.net (Arthur Bolstad) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 06:16:07 -0500 Subject: [sword-devel] Virtual Library of Theology In-Reply-To: <46A47597.5040004@ub.uni-tuebingen.de> References: <46A47597.5040004@ub.uni-tuebingen.de> Message-ID: <1185189368.5847.8.camel@tolonaro-desktop> Welcome! Your colleague is thinking but it looks like he has not done much Biblical research. One of the first questions we ask when investigating a Bible verse is "How is that word used elsewhere?" So (a) is based on a misunderstanding of how Pastor's (and specialized theologians) work. As far as (b) is concerned, I want desperately to reduce my book load so the more on computer the better. It is much better to have the material (books) on my own computer rather than online (so they are always, everywhere available). Glad you are thinking and talking about the questions. Art Bolstad On Mon, 2007-07-23 at 11:32 +0200, Anja Hofmann wrote: > Hello! > To introduce myself, my name is Anja Hofmann and I am currently working > at the University of Tuebingen on a project called "Virtual Library of > Theology" while doing a PhD in computational linguistics. The website is > www.virtheo.de (note: not all pages have been translated into English yet). > Since May, I have been reading this list and I have shown the BibleCS > tool and the Sword Web /BibleTool interface to my colleague responsible > for the theological content. > What I would love to do: adding a full text search over existing bibles > and other theological texts, that allows users to view translations and > originals in parallel and to access dictionary entries directly from the > text. > There would be one public search interface and one for university > members (including databases with licence restrictions). > My colleague listened to my ideas, but thought that > a. theologians (and other users) would search mainly based on content, > not on linguistic criteria (such as e.g. all verb forms of "to give"). > b. people would prefer to work with printed versions as they also need > them for references. > What are your experiences/opions? > Thank you very much in advance. > Yours sincerely, > Anja Hofmann > > _______________________________________________ > sword-devel mailing list: sword-devel at crosswire.org > http://www.crosswire.org/mailman/listinfo/sword-devel > Instructions to unsubscribe/change your settings at above page From pythondrs at yahoo.com Mon Jul 23 04:28:19 2007 From: pythondrs at yahoo.com (avolunteer DrStovallFoundation) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 04:28:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [sword-devel] Virtual Library of Theology In-Reply-To: <46A47597.5040004@ub.uni-tuebingen.de> Message-ID: <676009.87558.qm@web36113.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Dear Anja and sword developers, I have MAs in Linguistics from Michigan and Practical Field from a Theological University. I have solved problems by searching on parts of speech in the Greek New Testament. I am very interested in what Anja is proposing. I spend most of my life doing social development and disaster relief in the third world. But until Sept 2, I am in Europe and willing to be part of a team doing what Anja has proposed as long as it is done in Python, RPython, or has one of these as a wrapper around it. Why? Because other languages either lack power or cannot be easily taught to third world people who have very little education and so little self- confidence that they need to see immediate results. By giving them something they can understand with a little instruction they feel as though they are part of the project and a few of them will continue to learn. Give them a package and they think this is just another gift which is not a real opportunity for them to have a part in really changing the world. I can't count how many relief workers have said to me, 'When will these people start doing something for themselves instead of just looking for a hand-out?' The answer is simple. Whenever we we do not give them complete aid but rather give them the start of a project and expect them to complete it with us with our help. This is true even if we have the complete project already done and are hiding the details and expecting them to work with us to find the solution. Yours truly, a volunteer --- Anja Hofmann wrote: > Hello! > To introduce myself, my name is Anja Hofmann and I am currently working > at the University of Tuebingen on a project called "Virtual Library of > Theology" while doing a PhD in computational linguistics. The website is > www.virtheo.de (note: not all pages have been translated into English yet). > Since May, I have been reading this list and I have shown the BibleCS > tool and the Sword Web /BibleTool interface to my colleague responsible > for the theological content. > What I would love to do: adding a full text search over existing bibles > and other theological texts, that allows users to view translations and > originals in parallel and to access dictionary entries directly from the > text. > There would be one public search interface and one for university > members (including databases with licence restrictions). > My colleague listened to my ideas, but thought that > a. theologians (and other users) would search mainly based on content, > not on linguistic criteria (such as e.g. all verb forms of "to give"). > b. people would prefer to work with printed versions as they also need > them for references. > What are your experiences/opions? > Thank you very much in advance. > Yours sincerely, > Anja Hofmann > > _______________________________________________ > sword-devel mailing list: sword-devel at crosswire.org > http://www.crosswire.org/mailman/listinfo/sword-devel > Instructions to unsubscribe/change your settings at above page > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Choose the right car based on your needs. Check out Yahoo! Autos new Car Finder tool. http://autos.yahoo.com/carfinder/ From dmsmith555 at yahoo.com Mon Jul 23 05:58:43 2007 From: dmsmith555 at yahoo.com (DM Smith) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 08:58:43 -0400 Subject: [sword-devel] Virtual Library of Theology In-Reply-To: <46A47597.5040004@ub.uni-tuebingen.de> References: <46A47597.5040004@ub.uni-tuebingen.de> Message-ID: <7EC43954-4831-49AD-B73B-4EE8D18044BB@yahoo.com> Dear Anja, On Jul 23, 2007, at 5:32 AM, Anja Hofmann wrote: > Hello! > To introduce myself, my name is Anja Hofmann and I am currently > working > at the University of Tuebingen on a project called "Virtual Library of > Theology" while doing a PhD in computational linguistics. The > website is > www.virtheo.de (note: not all pages have been translated into > English yet). > Since May, I have been reading this list and I have shown the BibleCS > tool and the Sword Web /BibleTool interface to my colleague > responsible > for the theological content. > What I would love to do: adding a full text search over existing > bibles > and other theological texts, that allows users to view translations > and > originals in parallel and to access dictionary entries directly > from the > text. Take a look at BibleDesktop (www.crosswire.org/bibledesktop) as it has the ability to not only show books in parallel, but is able to show an "editorial view" of different editions/versions of a work. That is it will visually show you the edits necessary to transform one text into another. > There would be one public search interface and one for university > members (including databases with licence restrictions). This is excellent. And in align with my goals. Since 1979, it has been my desire to have pastors, seminarians, theologians and others have a full biblical library with full text search capabilities. At that time, my brother was in law school doing electronic legal searches using Lexis and I was in seminary pulling books off the shelves in the library. That very action was and is very limiting. For this reason, I worked at Lexis for nearly 15 years. > My colleague listened to my ideas, but thought that > a. theologians (and other users) would search mainly based on content, > not on linguistic criteria (such as e.g. all verb forms of "to give"). While that may be a true statement, content searching often needs to use linguistic criterion in order to be effective. The primary reason for this is that we often want to find content that we are not sure of the exact wording. Having the ability to do searches that go beyond the exact word that we are searching is helpful. For example, being able to find content via word stems would be very useful. Ultimately, what content searchers want is the ability to have the machine read their mind. That is, they want to be able to write a question in the most natural form to them and have the computer find the desired content. Further content searchers want to find supporting material. A very desired ability is to search topically or conceptually. This often involves theological synonyms. My opinion, linguistic searching is critical to finding content. For content searching it should be behind the scenes. But once it is present, making it available to those that want to dig deeper would be trivial. By the way, searching all verb forms of "to give" is essentially what people do when they search on Strong's numbers in a work keyed to them. > b. people would prefer to work with printed versions as they also need > them for references. The only preference that I have for printed works is that I can take them with me to wherever I wish; I still like the tactile sensation of paper. The whole question of citations for electronic publication can be solved. And has been solved for other content domains. In the realm of American law, citations need to be a particular form, generally containing work, edition/revision, page, and section/line. The nature of the citation is that it is durable temporally. West Law solved this for legal works, as they were the primary publisher of legal works. They embedded page numbers into their electronic texts. Lexis did something similar. In the realm of theological works, there has not been an attempt by publishers to produce a consistent pagination for a given work. I can often find two publications of the same work that have very different pagination. My thought has been that each work has a natural divisional structure for which a reference can be constructed. For example, this may be chapter, heading, and paragraph position. It should be possible to ask of any text selection for a reference. For example, right click and choose "copy reference to clipboard". Any electronic library of sufficient credibility and authority, having a robust citation mechanism could establish a de-facto citation standard. From davidslists at gmx.net Mon Jul 23 08:12:13 2007 From: davidslists at gmx.net (David (Mailing List Addy)) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 11:12:13 -0400 Subject: [sword-devel] Bible Desktop Editorial View (was Re:Virtual Library of Theology) In-Reply-To: <7EC43954-4831-49AD-B73B-4EE8D18044BB@yahoo.com> References: <46A47597.5040004@ub.uni-tuebingen.de> <7EC43954-4831-49AD-B73B-4EE8D18044BB@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200707231112.13685.davidslists@gmx.net> On Monday 23 July 2007 08:58, DM Smith wrote: > Take a look at BibleDesktop (www.crosswire.org/bibledesktop) as it ? > has the ability to not only show books in parallel, but is able to ? > show an "editorial view" of different editions/versions of a work. ? > That is it will visually show you the edits necessary to transform ? > one text into another. So is this something you added into the core of the JSword engine or something you do in the BibleDesktop front end? From dmsmith555 at yahoo.com Mon Jul 23 08:50:39 2007 From: dmsmith555 at yahoo.com (DM Smith) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 11:50:39 -0400 Subject: [sword-devel] Bible Desktop Editorial View (was Re:Virtual Library of Theology) In-Reply-To: <200707231112.13685.davidslists@gmx.net> References: <46A47597.5040004@ub.uni-tuebingen.de> <7EC43954-4831-49AD-B73B-4EE8D18044BB@yahoo.com> <200707231112.13685.davidslists@gmx.net> Message-ID: <46A4CE4F.7040002@yahoo.com> David (Mailing List Addy) wrote: > On Monday 23 July 2007 08:58, DM Smith wrote: > >> Take a look at BibleDesktop (www.crosswire.org/bibledesktop) as it >> has the ability to not only show books in parallel, but is able to >> show an "editorial view" of different editions/versions of a work. >> That is it will visually show you the edits necessary to transform >> one text into another. >> > > So is this something you added into the core of the JSword engine or something > you do in the BibleDesktop front end? It is in the core engine. The code that does the differencing is in the package: org.crosswire.common.diff This is a java implementation of some open source javascript code that I found. The code that uses it to is in the class: org.crosswire.jsword.book.BookData.java And there is a helper to convert the diff list into OSIS in: org.crosswire.jsword.book.OSISutil.diffToOsis() Here is a snippet on how it is used: // Compare the text of two verses, excluding OSIS or other markup List diffs = new Diff(lastText, thisText, false).compare(); // Make the diff more meaningful DiffCleanup.cleanupSemantic(diffs); // Convert it to osis String osisFragment = OSISUtil.diffToOsis(diffs); From dmsmith555 at yahoo.com Mon Jul 23 13:02:58 2007 From: dmsmith555 at yahoo.com (DM Smith) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 16:02:58 -0400 Subject: [sword-devel] Domain changed hands, should be deleted In-Reply-To: <46323349.5090904@yahoo.com> References: <45DF224F.1090707@mpj.cx> <46320400.8020307@yahoo.com> <46323349.5090904@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <46A50972.1030601@yahoo.com> FYI, The website has changed locations again. It is now at: http://koti.24.fi/jusalak/GreekNT/NTTexts.htm DM Smith wrote: > I've gotten a response from Maurice and the current website is: > rpbyztxt.com > or > http://kotisivu.dnainternet.net/jusala/RP2005/NTTexts.htm > > I have updated tr.conf, whnu.conf, robinsons.conf and byz.conf to > reflect the second site. > > In Him, > DM > > DM Smith wrote: >> It appears that the current website is: >> >> This gives a fully accented Greek text with a license that allows us >> to distribute it. It no longer has Strong's numbers, from what I can >> tell. >> >> I have sent email to Maurice Robinson for the current location. >> >> Kahunapule Michael Johnson wrote: >>> The domain byztxt.com no longer hosts a Greek New Testament. It has >>> been >>> taken over by a porn site operator. This site should be deleted from >>> mentions on the Crosswire web site and in the Sword project source >>> code. :-( >>> >>> Michael > From dmsmith555 at yahoo.com Mon Jul 23 13:25:32 2007 From: dmsmith555 at yahoo.com (DM Smith) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 16:25:32 -0400 Subject: [sword-devel] Accented Greek Texts Message-ID: <46A50EBC.6030301@yahoo.com> I found this page of interesting links on Textual Criticism. Some of the links lead to accented Greek texts. http://rosetta.reltech.org/TC/TC-links-main.html From Kahunapule at mpj.cx Mon Jul 23 17:46:01 2007 From: Kahunapule at mpj.cx (Kahunapule Michael Johnson) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 10:46:01 +1000 Subject: [sword-devel] OSIS recommendations to SIL/JAARS Message-ID: <46A54BC9.2050306@mpj.cx> DM, I hope the following document accurately reflects the dialect of OSIS we discussed: http://ebible.org/translation/SaneOSIS.htm Any comments? Typos? Improvement suggestions? Yes, I know the dialect of OSIS documented above isn't what I generate with the WEB & HNV, yet, but I plan to make it so. I'll be hiding in the higlands of Papua New Guinea... Michael From dmsmith555 at yahoo.com Mon Jul 23 21:37:50 2007 From: dmsmith555 at yahoo.com (DM Smith) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 00:37:50 -0400 Subject: [sword-devel] OSIS recommendations to SIL/JAARS In-Reply-To: <46A54BC9.2050306@mpj.cx> References: <46A54BC9.2050306@mpj.cx> Message-ID: <83F59972-AF72-402E-8358-DB0E4AD70787@yahoo.com> Michael, It is good to hear from you again. Couple of comments:

does not have a milestoned form. These do cross verse boundaries and the semantics of

don't allow for it to simply be ended and restarted on verse boundaries. So I see several options: 1) don't use

at all, 2) simulate

with something like and or 3) submit a change request against the OSIS spec or 4) always mark paragraphs between verses . I suggest 2 and 3, as 2 will allow a migration as the intent is clear. Having paragraphs start and end between verses is allowable in all cases. You refer to XMLT. Is this a typo? Should it be XSLT? With regard to quotes: Quotes frequently cross verse boundaries. This means with verses as containers that they need to be in the milestoned form: and . In your sample text you have This is improper. When using milestoned elements it is easy to produce valid but poor OSIS with respect to overlapping elements. When considering just the milestoned sID/eID pairs, they should not overlap as in:

.........

.... Likewise, it is easy to produce the following which is also not recommended:

.........

Here a division element ends right before the verse end. Having elements between verses is sometimes problematic for verse at a time processing. Such software needs to guess when looking at a single verse whether to append or prepend some or all of the interverse content. It should be used sparingly, and consistently. Hope this helps. In His Service, DM On Jul 23, 2007, at 8:46 PM, Kahunapule Michael Johnson wrote: > DM, I hope the following document accurately reflects the dialect of > OSIS we discussed: > > http://ebible.org/translation/SaneOSIS.htm > > Any comments? Typos? Improvement suggestions? > > Yes, I know the dialect of OSIS documented above isn't what I generate > with the WEB & HNV, yet, but I plan to make it so. > > I'll be hiding in the higlands of Papua New Guinea... > > Michael > > > > _______________________________________________ > sword-devel mailing list: sword-devel at crosswire.org > http://www.crosswire.org/mailman/listinfo/sword-devel > Instructions to unsubscribe/change your settings at above page From Kahunapule at mpj.cx Tue Jul 24 17:48:07 2007 From: Kahunapule at mpj.cx (Kahunapule Michael Johnson) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2007 10:48:07 +1000 Subject: [sword-devel] OSIS recommendations to SIL/JAARS In-Reply-To: <83F59972-AF72-402E-8358-DB0E4AD70787@yahoo.com> References: <46A54BC9.2050306@mpj.cx> <83F59972-AF72-402E-8358-DB0E4AD70787@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <46A69DC7.1090005@mpj.cx> DM Smith wrote: > Michael, > It is good to hear from you again. > You, too... Of course, I now feel really stupid, but I'm glad you pointed out the error of my ways before I went too far down that path. :-) > Couple of comments: >

does not have a milestoned form. Arghh. That pretty much messes up the whole idea. I should have noticed that. > These do cross verse boundaries > and the semantics of

don't allow for it to simply be ended and > restarted on verse boundaries. So I see several options: 1) don't > use

at all, This isn't a viable option unless a good milestonable replacement exists. > 2) simulate

with something like and That is kind of ugly... but it could work. Actually, you don't really need both of the above. You can revert to the rather early HTML form of

with no

, which works fine. :-) However, for consistency with being able to change to a milestoned form of the p element, both should be retained. > or 3) submit a change > request against the OSIS spec I think I would rather wait until we had more of a consensus on what we wanted before doing that. > or 4) always mark paragraphs between > verses. Bible translators believe that they have the freedom to place paragraph boundaries anywhere, not just at verse boundaries. They are right. > I suggest 2 and 3, as 2 will allow a migration as the intent > is clear. Having paragraphs start and end between verses is allowable > in all cases. > > You refer to XMLT. Is this a typo? Should it be XSLT? > Yes. > With regard to quotes: Quotes frequently cross verse boundaries. This > means with verses as containers that they need to be in the > milestoned form: and . In your sample > text you have This is improper. > OK, so q elements that indicate start and end of quotes should all be milestoned, and all have marker attributes. Only the q elements that indicate Words of Jesus within a verse should be in container form. I just used the container form in the example because the quotes fit in the verse that time, although they often don't. > When using milestoned elements it is easy to produce valid but poor > OSIS with respect to overlapping elements. When considering just the > milestoned sID/eID pairs, they should not overlap as in: >

.........

.... eID="aaa"/> > I thought the whole point of milestoned elements was to allow them to overlap! :-) Technically you could make verses overlap each other, too... but I can't think of any good reason to do that. I'm not sure why you might overlap div and q like your example in real text, unless the div and q started or ended at the same point, and someone chose to write them out in random order. A really good OSIS reader wouldn't care. Putting those sorts of things on the same stack in the writer implementation should take care of that bit of aesthetics. From chrislit at crosswire.org Tue Jul 24 20:17:32 2007 From: chrislit at crosswire.org (Chris Little) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 20:17:32 -0700 Subject: [sword-devel] OSIS recommendations to SIL/JAARS In-Reply-To: <46A69DC7.1090005@mpj.cx> References: <46A54BC9.2050306@mpj.cx> <83F59972-AF72-402E-8358-DB0E4AD70787@yahoo.com> <46A69DC7.1090005@mpj.cx> Message-ID: <46A6C0CC.2090808@crosswire.org> Kahunapule Michael Johnson wrote: > DM Smith wrote: >> When using milestoned elements it is easy to produce valid but poor >> OSIS with respect to overlapping elements. When considering just the >> milestoned sID/eID pairs, they should not overlap as in: >>

.........

....> eID="aaa"/> >> > I thought the whole point of milestoned elements was to allow them to > overlap! :-) > Technically you could make verses overlap each other, too... but I can't > think of any good reason to do that. I'm not sure why you might overlap > div and q like your example in real text, unless the div and q started > or ended at the same point, and someone chose to write them out in > random order. A really good OSIS reader wouldn't care. Putting those > sorts of things on the same stack in the writer implementation should > take care of that bit of aesthetics. There isn't an actual rule in OSIS against overlapping milestoned elements like in that example, is there? Div and seg elements can be used for so many functions that there is a very real probability that the example above would need to be encoded. Overlapping markup of the sort above is important for marking various hierarchies in a single document. You've got linguistic levels (word, clause, sentence, paragraph, etc.), often, but not always matching up with quotations. Then there's the book/chapter/verse hierarchy, which may or may not match up with that. You may want to markup elements such as authorship attribution or remarks on the questionable legibility of a particular string of papyrus text. And so forth.... So a good use of the above markup would be when you have some quotation (aaa) written on a papyrus, but a portion of the text (xxx), incorporating the start of the quotation, is only partly legible. Or maybe xxx appears to have been written by a different author from the rest of the text or is in a different hand from the rest of the manuscript. --Chris From dmsmith555 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 24 21:04:04 2007 From: dmsmith555 at yahoo.com (DM Smith) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2007 00:04:04 -0400 Subject: [sword-devel] OSIS recommendations to SIL/JAARS In-Reply-To: <46A6C0CC.2090808@crosswire.org> References: <46A54BC9.2050306@mpj.cx> <83F59972-AF72-402E-8358-DB0E4AD70787@yahoo.com> <46A69DC7.1090005@mpj.cx> <46A6C0CC.2090808@crosswire.org> Message-ID: <95CD6DE5-1D02-47A2-A2CB-3A1DA6A93039@yahoo.com> On Jul 24, 2007, at 11:17 PM, Chris Little wrote: > > > Kahunapule Michael Johnson wrote: >> DM Smith wrote: >>> When using milestoned elements it is easy to produce valid but poor >>> OSIS with respect to overlapping elements. When considering just the >>> milestoned sID/eID pairs, they should not overlap as in: >>>

.........

....>> eID="aaa"/> >>> >> I thought the whole point of milestoned elements was to allow them to >> overlap! :-) >> Technically you could make verses overlap each other, too... but I >> can't >> think of any good reason to do that. I'm not sure why you might >> overlap >> div and q like your example in real text, unless the div and q >> started >> or ended at the same point, and someone chose to write them out in >> random order. A really good OSIS reader wouldn't care. Putting those >> sorts of things on the same stack in the writer implementation should >> take care of that bit of aesthetics. > > There isn't an actual rule in OSIS against overlapping milestoned > elements like in that example, is there? No there is not. However, it seems to me that the purpose of milestoned container elements, such as

, , , ... was to allow for two incompatible divisions of the material to co-exist. (BCV, book/ chapter/verse; and CSP, chapter/section/paragraph) So if there were no BCV elements, then CSP container elements could be used for nearly the whole of the Bible. There will be notable exceptions. Quotes are an obvious one. Likewise, if there were only BCV elements, they could be container elements. I think, that if one were to markup the Bible twice, once in each way, and then try to merge the results, changing the elements of either one to containers that the result would be close to what I described. The milestoned elements would not overlap. (with the exceptions that had to be there in the first place.) The only big question I see in the merging would be the placement of the milestone elements relative to the container elements. I think that if is not semantically different from that it is desirable to reorder them so that the crossing of logical containers is minimized. Same goes with . But it is not necessary. > > Div and seg elements can be used for so many functions that there is a > very real probability that the example above would need to be encoded. > Overlapping markup of the sort above is important for marking various > hierarchies in a single document. > > You've got linguistic levels (word, clause, sentence, paragraph, > etc.), > often, but not always matching up with quotations. Then there's the > book/chapter/verse hierarchy, which may or may not match up with that. > You may want to markup elements such as authorship attribution or > remarks on the questionable legibility of a particular string of > papyrus > text. And so forth.... > > So a good use of the above markup would be when you have some > quotation > (aaa) written on a papyrus, but a portion of the text (xxx), > incorporating the start of the quotation, is only partly legible. Or > maybe xxx appears to have been written by a different author from the > rest of the text or is in a different hand from the rest of the > manuscript. These are what I mean by notable exceptions. -- DM From dmsmith555 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 25 04:19:21 2007 From: dmsmith555 at yahoo.com (DM Smith) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2007 07:19:21 -0400 Subject: [sword-devel] OSIS recommendations to SIL/JAARS In-Reply-To: <46A69DC7.1090005@mpj.cx> References: <46A54BC9.2050306@mpj.cx> <83F59972-AF72-402E-8358-DB0E4AD70787@yahoo.com> <46A69DC7.1090005@mpj.cx> Message-ID: <500ABB21-AE83-479F-9DA1-C73CC9D51893@yahoo.com> On Jul 24, 2007, at 8:48 PM, Kahunapule Michael Johnson wrote: > You can revert to the rather early HTML form of >
with no
, which works fine There are at least two things wrong with this: 1) It is not xml and won't validate as well-formed xml. Every open tag needs a corresponding end tag or needs to be marked. So you need either
or
. 2) It is semantically invalid. There is no content to the paragraph. Remember a processor is free to style a paragraph in any fashion, including ignoring containers without content. (Such as HTML does with an empty
) We are used to html processing producing a blank line between paragraphs. This is a matter of presentation. It is equally valid for a paragraph to start on the next line and be indented. In HTML this would be equivalent to
Or merely start on the next line. Or as I have seen in one publication, odd number paragraphs have margins shifted by a half inch. Imagine a culture where paragraphs don't start on a line, but are preceded by one symbol and ended by another, with inter-paragraph markers being elided into a new symbol. Note: OSIS does not presume any presentational effects with a
. It is not the equivalent to HTML's
, but rather TEIs. In HTML
is a block element. In TEI it is a content element. The difference is that blocks stack and content is merely content. See: http://www.tei-c.org/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/html/CO.html#COPA My suggestion to use with a type attribute indicating whether it is a substitution for a begin paragraph or an end paragraph allows for the full semantic of
and
(stylesheets can give whatever meaning they want to either) and gives a nod that most people expect paragraphs to be stacked and visually separated. Thus a processor that is unaware of the type attribute will probably give an expected visual representation. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.crosswire.org/pipermail/sword-devel/attachments/20070725/c1e4a3aa/attachment.html From ari.constancio at gmail.com Sun Jul 29 00:14:43 2007 From: ari.constancio at gmail.com (Ari Constancio) Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2007 08:14:43 +0100 Subject: [sword-devel] Portuguese modules status Message-ID: <66e82c800707290014v649e2138h8f20b6ac607fb0eb@mail.gmail.com> Hello, I see there's no current portuguese bible module available on Sword. I have searched previous posts about the issue (http://www.crosswire.org/pipermail/sword-devel/2006-November/024658.html is the relevant one for me, as a portuguese (pt_PT) contact to warrant a permission is mentioned). I'd like to know if there is any advance on this (even with pt_BR translations). Thank you, Ari Constancio From doug_rintoul at sil.org Mon Jul 30 11:38:28 2007 From: doug_rintoul at sil.org (Doug Rintoul) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 11:38:28 -0700 Subject: [sword-devel] atches for new Module Driver RawCom4 Message-ID: <46AE3024.9090505@sil.org> A while back I ask about the ramifications of changing the data size for commentary segments from unsigned short to unsigned long to overcome the 64K data limitation for commentary sections. I have had a closer look at the code and decided it might be better to create a new module driver than modify the existing driver. This way, there is no issues with backward compatibility with existing modules, and impact on the exist code is minimal. I am attaching two patches, one for the sword library and one for jsword. I followed the same approach as was taken for rawld4, and rawtext4. The patches are against sword-1.5.9 and the current svn version of jsword. Would it be possible to include these patches in the next release of sword and jsword? Please do not hesitate to ask question if more information is required. Thanks, Doug Rintoul Wycliffe/SIL. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: jsword-rawcom4.diff.bz2 Type: application/x-bzip Size: 1467 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.crosswire.org/pipermail/sword-devel/attachments/20070730/94bf57dc/attachment.bin -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: RawCom4.diff.gz Type: application/x-gzip Size: 8500 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.crosswire.org/pipermail/sword-devel/attachments/20070730/94bf57dc/attachment.gz From tehstealth at yahoo.com Mon Jul 30 14:39:58 2007 From: tehstealth at yahoo.com (James Bond) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 14:39:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [sword-devel] Sword DS Message-ID: <344976.37890.qm@web63414.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Hey guys, I was wondering if anyone was interested in developing a nice little Bible program for the Nintendo DS? there are plenty of homebrew out there, and it seems that it's very possible to port library and such to it. I would love to use something for advanced than the current plugin I use under DSOrganize (which just reads a text file). Having a Bible program with a nice search engine, multiple Bible versions, and all the goodies you would find in your average Sword-based app on the DS would be great! I don't have any programming skills in C/C++ but I'd be more than happy to help out with UI/Graphical elements. -Brian ____________________________________________________________________________________ Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life, your story. Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games. http://sims.yahoo.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.crosswire.org/pipermail/sword-devel/attachments/20070730/7f4b5517/attachment.html From scribe at crosswire.org Tue Jul 31 14:13:07 2007 From: scribe at crosswire.org (Troy A. Griffitts) Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2007 15:13:07 -0600 Subject: [sword-devel] atches for new Module Driver RawCom4 Message-ID: <2cfcee0f3f0f499eab20c2ab7709b22d@crosswire.org> Doug, Thank you for the patch! I had just updated the comments on this bug: http://crosswire.org/bugs/browse/API-60#action_10732 and figured it would be best to keep backward compat, as you also suggest and have done. What timing! :) Reviewing your patch, it looks good. You had included some of the experimental custom indexing code we had in rawtext.cpp, which I will likely strip out, and reviewing the patch also reminded me that we have some silly duplicated code which should also be isolated into a single place (prepText, et. al.). Thank you so much for taking the time research the necessary changes and to produce a patch. Wonderful! Look for it to appear in svn shortly. -Troy. Doug Rintoul wrote: >A while back I ask about the ramifications of changing the data size for >commentary segments from unsigned short to unsigned long to overcome the >64K data limitation for commentary sections. I have had a closer look at >the code and decided it might be better to create a new module driver >than modify the existing driver. This way, there is no issues with >backward compatibility with existing modules, and impact on the exist >code is minimal. > >I am attaching two patches, one for the sword library and one for >jsword. I followed the same approach as was taken for rawld4, and >rawtext4. The patches are against sword-1.5.9 and the current svn >version of jsword. Would it be possible to include these patches in the >next release of sword and jsword? > >Please do not hesitate to ask question if more information is required. > >Thanks, > >Doug Rintoul >Wycliffe/SIL. > >_______________________________________________ >sword-devel mailing list: sword-devel at crosswire.org >http://www.crosswire.org/mailman/listinfo/sword-devel >Instructions to unsubscribe/change your settings at above page > From doug_rintoul at sil.org Tue Jul 31 15:30:26 2007 From: doug_rintoul at sil.org (Doug Rintoul) Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2007 15:30:26 -0700 Subject: [sword-devel] atches for new Module Driver RawCom4 In-Reply-To: <2cfcee0f3f0f499eab20c2ab7709b22d@crosswire.org> References: <2cfcee0f3f0f499eab20c2ab7709b22d@crosswire.org> Message-ID: <46AFB802.2090505@sil.org> Troy A. Griffitts wrote: > Doug, > > Thank you for the patch! I had just updated the comments on this bug: > > http://crosswire.org/bugs/browse/API-60#action_10732 > > and figured it would be best to keep backward compat, as you also suggest > and have done. What timing! :) > > After coming up with the patch I sent you, I did try to modify the legacy driver and add a data size attribute to RawVerse but ran into problems with the static createModule method. I had thought to pass the datasize to the constructor and store it as an attribute but createModule also needs to know the datasize and since it is a static function, it does not have access to dynamic attributes. Maybe if I thought about it more, I could come up with something more efficient. > Reviewing your patch, it looks good. You had included some of the > experimental custom indexing code we had in rawtext.cpp, which I will likely > strip out, and reviewing the patch also reminded me that we have some silly > duplicated code which should also be isolated into a single place (prepText, > et. al.). > > Right. I just copied rawtext.cpp to rawtext4.cpp and made the changes needed to increase the data size. I didn't touch any of the other code. > Thank you so much for taking the time research the necessary changes and to > produce a patch. Wonderful! Look for it to appear in svn shortly. > > -Troy. > > > Glad to be of service. Doug.