[sword-devel] Re: sword-devel Digest, Vol 13, Issue 9

edb_fpcc at comcast.net edb_fpcc at comcast.net
Tue Apr 5 11:50:41 MST 2005 

Greetings brothers and sisters in Christ (and geekdom)!

Don Parris wrote:
>Just out of curiosity, would there be any interest in adding the original
>Penguin in the Pew to /usr/share/docs/?  It is relevant, and might actually
>get read by someone.  Because it's under the FDL, it could be modified to
>include a note about its inclusion in the distro.  If I can complete the
>revision before y'all get the distro out, I'll consider contributing it to
>the cause. Just a thought.

You know, even if IchthuX decides not to include the entire text of the article in /usr/share/docs, I certainly think it would be appropriate to include a link via webrowser so that someone could read it if they're connected to the Net.

This would have the added advantage of not requiring you to work so quickly on it! :D You could update the docuement at your leisure as long as you kept the same URL...

KFJ - PastorEd


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> Today's Topics:
> 
>    1. Release 1.5.8 and the NASB (DM Smith)
>    2. Re: Christian Debian distro talk / Report (Pastor Ed B.)
>    3. Re: BibleMemorizer - Sword as plugin? (Licensing) (DM Smith)
>    4. Re: Clementine Vulgate (Chris Little)
>    5. Re: How about the OT's versification? (Chris Little)
>    6. Re: Re: Christian Debian distro talk / Report (Don Parris)
>    7. Re: Release 1.5.8 and the NASB (Chris Little)
> 
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Message: 1
> Date: Mon, 04 Apr 2005 21:37:23 -0400
> From: DM Smith <dmsmith555 at gmail.com>
> Subject: [sword-devel] Release 1.5.8 and the NASB
> To: "SWORD Developers' Collaboration Forum"
> 	<sword-devel at crosswire.org>
> Message-ID: <4251EBD3.3060401 at woh.rr.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed
> 
> According to the conf for NASB, the words of Christ can be in red. But I 
> don't see it and I think I know why. I am not sure whether this is a 
> problem with NASB or with 1.5.8. I think it is a module problem, but 
> perhaps 1.5.8 should be made to accommodate.
> 
> Take Matthew 5.5. It is encoded:
> <title subType="x-Section" subtype="x-preverse" type="section">Disciples 
> and the World</title><milestone type="x-RS"/>&#65533;<w lemma="strong:G217">You 
> are the salt</w> <w lemma="strong:G1093">of the earth</w>; but <note 
> type="crossReference" osisID="Matt.5.13.xref.A" n="A"><reference 
> osisRef="Mark.9.50">Mark 9:50</reference>; <reference 
> osisRef="Luke.14.34">Luke 14:34f</reference></note><w 
> lemma="strong:G1437">if</w> <w lemma="strong:G217">the salt</w> <w 
> lemma="strong:G3471">has become</w> <w 
> lemma="strong:G3471">tasteless</w>, <w lemma="strong:G1722 
> strong:G5101">how</w> <note type="explanation" osisID="Matt.5.13.note.1" 
> n="1">Lit <hi type="italic">will</hi></note><w lemma="strong:G233">can 
> it be made</w> <w lemma="strong:G233">salty</w> <transChange 
> type="added">again</transChange>? <w lemma="strong:G3762">It is no</w> 
> <w lemma="strong:G2089">longer</w> <w lemma="strong:G2480">good</w> <w 
> lemma="strong:G3762">for anything</w>, <w 
> lemma="strong:G1508">except</w> <w lemma="strong:G906">to be thrown</w> 
> <w lemma="strong:G2662">out and trampled</w> <w 
> lemma="strong:G2662">under</w> <w lemma="strong:G2662">foot</w> <w 
> lemma="strong:G444">by men</w>.<milestone type="x-RT"/><milestone 
> type="line" subType="x-PM"/>
> 
> In this you will note the following:
> 1) Quotes are not tagged, but literal characters. If I remember 
> correctly, OSIS 2.0 postulates that quotes should not be in the text, 
> but in the markup. (I'm not trying to start the "How should quotes be 
> encoded" flame wars again.)
> 2) While milestone-start and milestone-end were deprecated a while ago 
> and have been removed from OSIS, the NASB has creatively gone around 
> this: It is using the type attribute as a way of marking the start and 
> the end of Red Letter text: type="x-RS" for the start and type="x-RT" 
> for the end.
> 
> Also, unrelated to the Red Letter problem, the NASB uses <milestone 
> type="line" subType="x-XX"/> for line breaks that should show up in the 
> display of the text. According to OSIS milestone of type="line" are to 
> represent line breaks in the original manuscript and should not be used 
> to mark up poetry. It appears that is what is going on here. This can 
> also be seen in the Psalms with a frequent subType of x-PO.
> 
> The reason I bring this up: Should Sword change to accommodate NASB? Or 
> should NASB (possibly as it is encoded into a module) change?
> 
> Earlier today the NASB was provided as an example of how to encode OSIS. 
> Does this still hold?
> 
> If the release of the NASB is tied to 1.5.8's release, I think this 
> question should be answered.
> 
> BTW, if anyone knows how to write xslt to handle milestones like this to 
> mark the beginning and ending of red letter text please let me know.
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 2
> Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 19:24:42 -0700
> From: "Pastor Ed B." <pastored at comcast.net>
> Subject: [sword-devel] Re: Christian Debian distro talk / Report
> To: Rapha?l Pinson <raphink at gmail.com>
> Cc: chris at adebenham.com, mreed at fusionmagic.com,
> 	shawn at missionarytechsupport.com,	Nigel Chapman 
> <nigel at chapman.id.au>,
> 	daftspaniel at hotmail.com,	l4c <l4c at thelinuxlink.net>,
> 	krugerhd at comast.net,	sword-devel at crosswire.org, fournilgilles at free.fr
> Message-ID: <200504041924.44590.pastored at comcast.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain;  charset="iso-8859-1"
> 
> Hello, everyone! Greetings in Jesus' mighty name!
> 
> I've been talking with Dave (my partner in the iXthus Project development), 
> and we have some thoughts about IchthuX, and what could be done to streamline 
> the project.
> 
> 1) there are a LOT of extra packages from Knoppix in IchthuX that just don't 
> really need to be there to meet our stated outreach goals. Looking at the 
> overloaded KDE menu just makes me feel bloated. 
> 
> Can we *please* get rid of the development packages, the unnecessary editors 
> (5 editors? how about just down to Kedit, Kate, and a text editor (I prefer 
> nano over zile, easier for a newbie to use, but it doesn't matter THAT much - 
> most newbies don't do console editing anyway).
> 
> 2) During the HD install, the script has LILO as the default, but LILO is not 
> nearly as flexible/recoverable as GRUB. Any chance we could switch the two?
> 
> 3) Since this is going to be an OUTREACH tool that will be given to people who 
> are unfamiliar with Linux, we should probably spend some time naming things 
> so that non-Linux users won't get overly confused. For example:
> 
> In the KDE menu, what does KNOPPIX mean? Since I'm a fairly experienced Linux 
> user, I know right away what it means. But what if we give this disk to 
> someone who has never even SEEN Linux, let alone the KNOPPIX distro. It will 
> just confuse them.
> 
> The entire KDE menu structure is WAY too complicated. It should be streamlined 
> down to just a few menu entries, with organized submenus. I know this is 
> possible, because the Multimedia menu is subdivided into Sound, Video, and 
> Viewers. This is excellent - let's continue this all the way through and 
> SIMPLIFY.
> 
> 4) Raphael: excellent job on pre-configuring Xchat to have Christian Forums 
> right up front. That is GREAT. Can you put a DESKTOP shortcut that says 
> something like "Live Christian Chat" which links to Xchat?
> 
> 5) The graphics. That little kid coloring book version of Jesus makes my skin 
> crawl. Do we really want to portray our Lord as a cartoon character? I would 
> much rather come up with something that looks a bit more professional and has 
> our theme built into it. 
> 
> We could create a series of themes, and keep the cartoon Jesus picture for the 
> kids, along with the excellent Everaldo Kids' Icon theme. But PLEASE - not 
> for the default install.
> 
> 6) Right now, it looks as if Raphael is doing the lion's share of the actual 
> work on configuring the distro. Is there any way we could spread out this 
> development process so that we could all work on the project?
> 
> Perhaps we could upload customized IchthuX packages to be included during the 
> iso build process... all we need is a place to store them.
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 3
> Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2005 00:28:10 -0400
> From: DM Smith <dmsmith555 at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [sword-devel] BibleMemorizer - Sword as plugin?
> 	(Licensing)
> To: "SWORD Developers' Collaboration Forum"
> 	<sword-devel at crosswire.org>
> Message-ID: <425213DA.8090005 at gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
> 
> Jeremy,
> 
> I don't know what you are trying to accomplish by switching to the X 
> license or similar. It says that anyone can take your code and, as long 
> as they don't remove/modify the license statement, they can use it as if 
> it were their own. Their only responsibility to you is to supply the 
> unmodified license along with the software they develop from it. There 
> is no responsibility for the users to identify whether or how they 
> modified your code. If they introduced problems, it could come back to 
> you for support as your's possibly would be the only name on it.
> 
> Specifically, someone could take your code, modify it or not, and sell it.
> 
> Is this what you want?
> 
> DM
> 
> Jeremy Erickson wrote:
> 
> >I am considering putting the Sword capabilities for BibleMemorizer in a 
> >separate library file and loading it as a plugin.  This way, I could also 
> >have an alternative plugin to return the names of the books of the Bible, 
> >numbers of chapters, etc. for those who don't want to use Sword.  A plugin 
> >interface would make it easy for me or someone else to add a capability for 
> >BibleMemorizer to load verses from a different program.  In addition, it 
> >would add flexibility for binary distributions (obviously only when someone 
> >who uses Sword distributes BibleMemorizer without the Sword plugin, otherwise 
> >a binary-only distribution would violate the GPL).
> >
> >If I did this would I still have to dual-license BibleMemorizer itself?  
> >According to the GPL FAQ 
> >(http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.html#NFUseGPLPlugins):
> >
> >"If the program dynamically links plug-ins, and they make function calls to 
> >each other and share data structures, we believe they form a single program, 
> >which must be treated as an extension of both the main program and the 
> >plug-ins. In order to use the GPL-covered plug-ins, the main program must be 
> >released under the GPL or a GPL-compatible free software license, and that 
> >the terms of the GPL must be followed when the main program is distributed 
> >for use with these plug-ins."
> >
> >Here the FSF allows for "a GPL-compatible free software license" for the main 
> >app, not just the GPL.  Would Crosswire agree if I licensed the main app 
> >under the 2-clause BSD license or the MIT/X11 license (which I might switch 
> >to anyway since it's shorter and clearer for non-geeks), and the plugin under 
> >the GPL?  Knowing how seriously licensing is taken here, I definitely will 
> >not do so unless you're cool with it.
> >
> >-Jeremy Erickson
> >_______________________________________________
> >sword-devel mailing list: sword-devel at crosswire.org
> >http://www.crosswire.org/mailman/listinfo/sword-devel
> >Instructions to unsubscribe/change your settings at above page
> >
> >  
> >
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 4
> Date: Mon, 04 Apr 2005 21:27:51 -0700
> From: Chris Little <chrislit at crosswire.org>
> Subject: Re: [sword-devel] Clementine Vulgate
> To: "SWORD Developers' Collaboration Forum"
> 	<sword-devel at crosswire.org>
> Message-ID: <425213C7.5060207 at crosswire.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
> 
> What I mean is that I'm working on a module. It has absolutely no 
> bearing on the engine.
> 
> Barry Drake wrote:
> > Hi there .............
> > 
> > chrislit at crosswire.org wrote:
> > 
> >>> What is the prospect of this being the full text - are we going to  have
> >>> support for the deutero-canonical books?
> >>
> >>
> >> No possibility. The OSIS source will have the full text though. 
> > 
> > 
> > Chris - are you saying 'for now', or 'never'?  I understand that there 
> > is an ongoing move to have the Sword api support flexible versification, 
> > which will enable the deutero-canonical books to be included.  I believe 
> > that this is now one of the higher priorities.  Am I right?
> > 
> > God bless,
> > Barry Drake.
> > _______________________________________________
> > sword-devel mailing list: sword-devel at crosswire.org
> > http://www.crosswire.org/mailman/listinfo/sword-devel
> > Instructions to unsubscribe/change your settings at above page
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 5
> Date: Mon, 04 Apr 2005 22:04:19 -0700
> From: Chris Little <chrislit at crosswire.org>
> Subject: Re: [sword-devel] How about the OT's versification?
> To: "SWORD Developers' Collaboration Forum"
> 	<sword-devel at crosswire.org>
> Message-ID: <42521C53.8010306 at crosswire.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
> 
> C. N. R. wrote:
> > Dear SWORD users,
> >  
> > In spite of Chris Little opinions, the SWORD program was conceived *to 
> > make possible the comparative reading* of several Bibles versions and 
> > the standard is the King James Version.
> 
> I don't know where you got that idea, but it is entirely wrong. It's 
> really difficult to argue that the purpose behind Sword was comparative 
> reading when you consider that parallel Bibles have only been supported 
> since roughly the time when the 1.5.6 frontends came out. Furthermore, 
> the KJV versification is ABSOLUTELY NOT the standard--international or 
> otherwise.
> 
> Catholic and Orthodox traditions vary GREATLY from the KJV 
> versification. ALL original language texts (Hebrew, Greek, Latin, & 
> anything else you might consider original language) differ SIGNIFICANTLY 
> from the KJV versification. NO modern commercial Bibles use the KJV 
> versification, to my knowledge (NKJV might be an exception for obvious 
> reasons, but I doubt that even). Even genetic descentants of the KJV 
> like the NASB and NRSV use different versification standards. So 
> "standardizing" on the KJV versification is utterly arbitrary and even 
> if one WERE to set a specific versification as "standard" (which I think 
> would be a profoundly bad idea) the KJV versification is demonstrably 
> inferior to virtually any other versification in use.
> 
>  > How could the comparative /
> > parallel reading be possible -- or the use of commentaries --, if we do 
> > not adjust the versification of foreign Bibles to make it compatible 
> > with that of the KJV ?  What I"ve done with the Romanian Orthodox Bible, 
> > more exactly with the Book of Pslams, was already done with other 
> > versions of the Bible, like the LXX (which is at this time present on 
> > the SWORD site)...  How would handle Mr. Chris Little the Romanian Psalm
> > no. 9, which in KJV is in fact two Psalms (no. 9 and 10) ?  He would 
> > paste together the Psalm 10 with the "last valid verse" of the Psalm 9 
> > ?  In fact this new rule, "we don't accept alterations of 
> > versification", makes *IMPOSSIBLE the comparative reading*, which is the 
> > main feature of The SWORD Project program !!!
> 
> I've addressed this previously. Apparently I need to repeat myself. We 
> use the best source texts we can get. We will happily accept 
> improvements to existing modules. We will not accept altered versions of 
> texts, however--especially when the unaltered versions are readily 
> available.
> 
> You took publicly available copies of the Biblia Gdanska and modified 
> the versification to be more like that of the KJV. Ask yourself: If the 
> KJV is the international standard, WHY is this Bible posted in some 
> other versification? The answer is clear: because its own versification 
> is the versification with which its users are familiar. "Comparative 
> reading" is a nice feature, but is secondary to a Bible actually being 
> useful to its user community.
> 
> This kind of activity is why I do not like to accept any content 
> converted by users. I would prefer that we simply be given links to 
> source material so that someone from CrossWire can work on the modules 
> themselves. I believe it is less likely that they will editorialize as 
> they do markup & conversion.
> 
> --Chris
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 6
> Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 01:31:56 -0400
> From: Don Parris <evangelinux at matheteuo.org>
> Subject: Re: [sword-devel] Re: Christian Debian distro talk / Report
> To: "SWORD Developers' Collaboration Forum"
> 	<sword-devel at crosswire.org>
> Message-ID: <20050405013156.0687c94f at luke.matheteuo.rel>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
> 
> On Mon, 4 Apr 2005 19:24:42 -0700
> "Pastor Ed B." <pastored at comcast.net> wrote:
> 
> > Hello, everyone! Greetings in Jesus' mighty name!
> > 
> > I've been talking with Dave (my partner in the iXthus Project
> > development), and we have some thoughts about IchthuX, and what could be
> > done to streamline the project.
> > 
> > 1) there are a LOT of extra packages from Knoppix in IchthuX that just
> > don't really need to be there to meet our stated outreach goals. Looking
> > at the overloaded KDE menu just makes me feel bloated. 
> > 
> 
> Just out of curiosity, would there be any interest in adding the original
> Penguin in the Pew to /usr/share/docs/?  It is relevant, and might actually
> get read by someone.  Because it's under the FDL, it could be modified to
> include a note about its inclusion in the distro.  If I can complete the
> revision before y'all get the distro out, I'll consider contributing it to
> the cause. Just a thought.
> 
> Don
> -- 
> evangelinux    GNU Evangelist
> http://matheteuo.org/                   http://chaddb.sourceforge.net/
> "Free software is like God's love - you can share it with anyone anytime
> anywhere."
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 7
> Date: Mon, 04 Apr 2005 22:25:35 -0700
> From: Chris Little <chrislit at crosswire.org>
> Subject: Re: [sword-devel] Release 1.5.8 and the NASB
> To: "SWORD Developers' Collaboration Forum"
> 	<sword-devel at crosswire.org>
> Message-ID: <4252214F.8020605 at crosswire.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed
> 
> Uh... this isn't OSIS--not by a long shot. The points you raise are 
> entirely correct.
> 
> It's my sincere hope that this is from an old version of the module or 
> something.
> 
> DM Smith wrote:
> > According to the conf for NASB, the words of Christ can be in red. But I 
> > don't see it and I think I know why. I am not sure whether this is a 
> > problem with NASB or with 1.5.8. I think it is a module problem, but 
> > perhaps 1.5.8 should be made to accommodate.
> > 
> > Take Matthew 5.5. It is encoded:
> > <title subType="x-Section" subtype="x-preverse" type="section">Disciples 
> > and the World</title><milestone type="x-RS"/>&#65533;<w lemma="strong:G217">You 
> > are the salt</w> <w lemma="strong:G1093">of the earth</w>; but <note 
> > type="crossReference" osisID="Matt.5.13.xref.A" n="A"><reference 
> > osisRef="Mark.9.50">Mark 9:50</reference>; <reference 
> > osisRef="Luke.14.34">Luke 14:34f</reference></note><w 
> > lemma="strong:G1437">if</w> <w lemma="strong:G217">the salt</w> <w 
> > lemma="strong:G3471">has become</w> <w 
> > lemma="strong:G3471">tasteless</w>, <w lemma="strong:G1722 
> > strong:G5101">how</w> <note type="explanation" osisID="Matt.5.13.note.1" 
> > n="1">Lit <hi type="italic">will</hi></note><w lemma="strong:G233">can 
> > it be made</w> <w lemma="strong:G233">salty</w> <transChange 
> > type="added">again</transChange>? <w lemma="strong:G3762">It is no</w> 
> > <w lemma="strong:G2089">longer</w> <w lemma="strong:G2480">good</w> <w 
> > lemma="strong:G3762">for anything</w>, <w 
> > lemma="strong:G1508">except</w> <w lemma="strong:G906">to be thrown</w> 
> > <w lemma="strong:G2662">out and trampled</w> <w 
> > lemma="strong:G2662">under</w> <w lemma="strong:G2662">foot</w> <w 
> > lemma="strong:G444">by men</w>.<milestone type="x-RT"/><milestone 
> > type="line" subType="x-PM"/>
> > 
> > In this you will note the following:
> > 1) Quotes are not tagged, but literal characters. If I remember 
> > correctly, OSIS 2.0 postulates that quotes should not be in the text, 
> > but in the markup. (I'm not trying to start the "How should quotes be 
> > encoded" flame wars again.)
> 
> <q who="Jesus">....</q> is used to mark words of Christ. (The <q> part 
> is standard. The "Jesus" part is basically ad hoc, but it's used by Sword.)
> 
> > 2) While milestone-start and milestone-end were deprecated a while ago 
> > and have been removed from OSIS, the NASB has creatively gone around 
> > this: It is using the type attribute as a way of marking the start and 
> > the end of Red Letter text: type="x-RS" for the start and type="x-RT" 
> > for the end.
> 
> Yeah. If you want to horribly abuse OSIS, you should at least use <seg> 
> to do it. :)
> 
> > Also, unrelated to the Red Letter problem, the NASB uses <milestone 
> > type="line" subType="x-XX"/> for line breaks that should show up in the 
> > display of the text. According to OSIS milestone of type="line" are to 
> > represent line breaks in the original manuscript and should not be used 
> > to mark up poetry. It appears that is what is going on here. This can 
> > also be seen in the Psalms with a frequent subType of x-PO.
> > 
> > The reason I bring this up: Should Sword change to accommodate NASB? Or 
> > should NASB (possibly as it is encoded into a module) change?
> 
> Sword should change to accomodate OSIS, and the NASB (module) should 
> change to conform to OSIS. Again... the above is not OSIS. You can 
> encode documents that validate against the OSIS schema using only <div> 
> and <seg>, but that doesn't make them OSIS.
> 
> > Earlier today the NASB was provided as an example of how to encode OSIS. 
> > Does this still hold?
> 
> It should not. Not if it's the source document of the above markup.
> 
> --Chris
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> _______________________________________________
> sword-devel mailing list
> sword-devel at crosswire.org
> http://www.crosswire.org/mailman/listinfo/sword-devel
> 
> 
> End of sword-devel Digest, Vol 13, Issue 9
> ******************************************

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