<div><br></div><div><div>DM wrote about one special case but this applies pretty well also more generally:</div><div class="im"><div><br></div><div><div><font color="#3333ff" size="1">Yes, it is an external semantic, not an OSIS one. It should be documented for the reader. I doubt that the reader will ever see such documentation. A reader of a book may know to go to an introduction to figure out what the +, |, ;, .... mean. A user of software might not know where to go or that it is documented anywhere.</font></div>
<div><br></div></div></div><div>Exactly. And for this reason there shouldn't, if possible, be anything at all in the markup that is left open for the user's interpretation. If we are obliged to use the concept of an indirect or a compound reference (as we are with our Finnish translation), the software alone should be able to handle the special cases properly and not rely on the user to understand or even notice the special notation and act accordingly.</div>
<div><br></div><div>Thus, this suggestion of yours, for example, is not an option - at least not for us:</div><div><div class="im"><div><font size="1" color="#3333ff">Then all you can do is have a reference to the verse that has the real note. The text of the reference would have to be understood by the reader as meaning an indirect reference. This is no different from what you see in the text.</font></div>
<div><br></div></div><div>That would mean markup like this:</div><div><font color="#990000"><reference osisRef="Gen.32.31">Gen. 32:31+</reference></font></div><div><br></div><div>In a printed Bible, users would probably pay more attention to the plus in the notation, since they actually need to read the reference carefully in order to look up the verse it's referring to. But in software they'd be presented a ready link to click. Upon seeing a link, quite many users would simply go and click the link, without paying too much attention to what the link actually says, and thus they might not notice at all that there is a plus. Which would result in them taking false verses as the reference.</div>
<div><br></div><div><div>Also, this markup would not enable future software to implement tailored proper handling of indirect references, since the markup wouldn't contain any indication whatsoever about the indirectness. And software should determine structures from markup only, not text between the markup. Of course, this part of the problem might be fixed by adding some attribute that implies that this reference is indirect, but still, even then software that ignores that attribute would result in erroneous results.</div>
<div><br></div><div>And this is why I still consider a direct reference to a reference as my first option to code indirect references (unless someone still comes up with a better and more compatible solution).</div><div><br>
</div></div><div>Similar problems also apply to compound references, and I believe I'll have to go with the option of stretching the boundaries of OSIS there as well.</div><div><br></div><div><div>There are 1625 occurences of indirect references in our translation, and about as many compound references, so they are not minor exceptions but a very common practice.</div>
<div><br></div></div><div><br></div><div>So, much as I'd love to be able to give the users of our source file pointers to tools ready for use with the file, I'm afraid that might turn out to be impossible, at least with the current versions of SWORD and JSword. I'm really sorry about that but it seems inevitable right now. Of course, I'll be happy to endorse those tools if they one day will be updated to support these features - but naturally I also can't expect them to take into account special needs that seem to be related to just one small translation.</div>
<div><br></div><div><br></div><div>The target of this project was to produce a file that will not need too much manipulation to be used for a variety of purposes, and this target is not compromised even though I'd use OSIS in unorthodox ways. Of course I'll document any unorthodox usage and also consider whether I should even call the markup something like "OSIS with some modifications". On the other hand, even with these modifications the code would still seem to be valid OSIS.</div>
<div><br></div><div>Once again, our discussions here and your help have definitely not been redundant. You've helped me a lot to pin down some major issues about these problems. Lots of thanks for that!</div><div><br>
</div><div>Blessings,</div><div><br></div><div>Markku</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div></div></div><div><br></div><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">2012/11/26 DM Smith <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:dmsmith@crosswire.org" target="_blank">dmsmith@crosswire.org</a>></span><br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div><div class="h5"><div style="word-wrap:break-word"><br>
<div><div><div>On Nov 26, 2012, at 11:22 AM, Markku Pihlaja <<a href="mailto:markku.pihlaja@sempre.fi" target="_blank">markku.pihlaja@sempre.fi</a>> wrote:</div><br><blockquote type="cite"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">
2012/11/24 DM Smith <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:dmsmith@crosswire.org" target="_blank">dmsmith@crosswire.org</a>></span></div><div class="gmail_quote"><br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div style="word-wrap:break-word"><font color="#3333ff">Haven't been able to reply earlier.</font></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>No problem, great to hear from you even now! Or well, Saturday. </div><div><br></div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style="word-wrap:break-word"><blockquote type="cite">
<div><span style="color:rgb(153,0,0)"><font size="1"><note type="crossreference"></font></span></div><div><div class="gmail_quote"><div><font size="1"><span style="color:rgb(153,0,0)"> <reference osisRef="</span>Gen.38.7<span style="color:rgb(153,0,0)">"></span>Gen. 38:7<span style="color:rgb(153,0,0)"></reference>,</span></font></div>
<div><font size="1"><span style="color:rgb(153,0,0)"> <reference osisRef="</span>Gen.38.10<span style="color:rgb(153,0,0)">"></span>10<span style="color:rgb(153,0,0)"></reference>;</span></font></div>
<div><font size="1"><span style="color:rgb(153,0,0)"> <reference osisRef="</span>Num. 26:19-21<span style="color:rgb(153,0,0)">"</span><span style="color:rgb(153,0,0)">></span>Num. 26:19-21<span style="color:rgb(153,0,0)"></reference>;</span></font></div>
<div><font size="1"><span style="color:rgb(153,0,0)"> <reference osisRef="</span>1Chr.4.1<span style="color:rgb(153,0,0)">"</span><span style="color:rgb(153,0,0)">></span>1. Chr. 4:1<span style="color:rgb(153,0,0)"></reference></span></font></div>
<div><span style="color:rgb(153,0,0)"><font size="1"></note></font></span></div></div></div></blockquote><div><font color="#3333ff">Close. The osisRef range has to have 2 osisIDs separated by a dash. So, Num.26.19-Num.26.21. Also, the separator for an osisID or an osisRef is never a colon, but only a period.</font></div>
</div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Oops... My mistake, didn't convert that "human reference" to an osis reference. I wrote that after a long day at work :). </div><div><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div style="word-wrap:break-word"><div><blockquote type="cite"><div><font size="1">If, on the other hand, I list that as three subsequent notes, the semicolons wouldn't be embedded in any tags and thus would be rendered even when reference notes should be hidden.</font></div>
<div><font size="1"><br></font></div><div><div class="gmail_quote"><div><span style="color:rgb(153,0,0)"><font size="1"><note type="crossreference"></font></span></div><div><font size="1"><span style="color:rgb(153,0,0)"> <reference osisRef="</span>Gen.38.7<span style="color:rgb(153,0,0)">"></span>Gen. 38:7<span style="color:rgb(153,0,0)"></reference>,</span></font></div>
<div><font size="1"><span style="color:rgb(153,0,0)"> <reference osisRef="</span>Gen.38.10<span style="color:rgb(153,0,0)">"></span>10<span style="color:rgb(153,0,0)"></reference></span></font></div>
<div><span style="color:rgb(153,0,0)"><font size="1"></note></font></span></div><div><font size="1">;</font></div><div><font size="1"> <span style="color:rgb(153,0,0)"><note type="crossreference"></span></font></div>
<div><font size="1"><span style="color:rgb(153,0,0)"> <reference osisRef="</span>Num. 26:19-21<span style="color:rgb(153,0,0)">"</span><span style="color:rgb(153,0,0)">></span>Num. 26:19-21<span style="color:rgb(153,0,0)"></reference></span></font></div>
<div><span style="color:rgb(153,0,0)"><font size="1"></note></font></span></div><div><font size="1">;</font></div><div><font size="1"> <span style="color:rgb(153,0,0)"><note type="crossreference"></span></font></div>
<div><font size="1"><span style="color:rgb(153,0,0)"> <reference osisRef="</span>1Chr.4.1<span style="color:rgb(153,0,0)">"</span><span style="color:rgb(153,0,0)">></span>1. Chr. 4:1<span style="color:rgb(153,0,0)"></reference></span></font></div>
<div><span style="color:rgb(153,0,0)"><font size="1"></note></font></span></div><div><span style="color:rgb(153,0,0)"><font size="1"><br></font></span></div></div></div><div><font size="1">I guess it is also true what you wrote about note tags: they represent the marker(s) in the text (even though most of our printed Finnish Bibles don't include markers within the text; the notes are listed after certain passages with references to the position of the note instead). Also this would imply that I shouldn't use the later example with three subsequent notes.</font></div>
</blockquote><div><br></div></div><font color="#3333ff">This won't work as the ; are now part of the main text. It appears here that you are trying to get three foot note markers separated by semi-colon.</font></div></blockquote>
<div><br></div><div>Yes, just as I assumed in the text before the example. I wasn't trying to suggest a correct way here but rather demonstrate the problem in the "obvious" solution to my original problem.</div>
<div><br></div><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style="word-wrap:break-word">
<div></div><div><font color="#3333ff">The <note> element specifies the placement of a footnote marker and it's content is the content of the footnote. It is really as simple as that.</font></div></div></blockquote>
<div> </div><div>Yes, exactly!</div><div><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style="word-wrap:break-word">
<blockquote type="cite"><div><font size="1">...listing all parts of the compound reference in one osisRef. That would seem to work somehow:</font></div><div><font size="1"><br></font></div><div><div class="gmail_quote"><div>
<font size="1"> <span style="color:rgb(153,0,0)"><note type="crossreference"></span></font></div><div><font size="1"><span style="color:rgb(153,0,0)"> <reference osisRef="</span>Gen.38.7 Gen.38.10<span style="color:rgb(153,0,0)">"></span>Gen. 38:7,10<span style="color:rgb(153,0,0)"></reference>;</span></font></div>
<div><font size="1"><span style="color:rgb(153,0,0)"> <reference osisRef="</span>Num. 26:19-21<span style="color:rgb(153,0,0)">"</span><span style="color:rgb(153,0,0)">></span>Num. 26:19-21<span style="color:rgb(153,0,0)"></reference>;</span></font></div>
<div><font size="1"><span style="color:rgb(153,0,0)"> <reference osisRef="</span>1Chr.4.1<span style="color:rgb(153,0,0)">"</span><span style="color:rgb(153,0,0)">></span>1. Chr. 4:1<span style="color:rgb(153,0,0)"></reference></span></font></div>
<div><span style="color:rgb(153,0,0)"><font size="1"></note></font></span></div><div><span style="color:rgb(153,0,0)"><font size="1"><br></font></span></div></div></div><div><font size="1">...So is this certainly valid markup?</font></div>
</blockquote><div><font color="#3333ff">It is valid, but not a good idea. There is a wide variety of software that handles OSIS, e.g. SWORD and JSword. The former is focused on chapter at a time presentation, so expects each reference to be a contiguous range, presenting the chapter and perhaps highlighting the first contiguous range. JSword takes each reference as a verse list and presents the contents of each of the verses.</font></div>
</div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Did I understand right? JSword can handle even such osisRefs as</div><div><font color="#990000"><reference osisRef="Gen.38.7 Gen.38.10 Num.26.19-Num.26.21">Gen. 38:7,10, Num. 26:19-21</reference></font></div>
</div></blockquote><div><br></div></div>Yes. JSword can handle this just fine. It will create a single clickable link, which will navigate to a page with those references' text.<div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div class="gmail_quote">
<div><br></div><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style="word-wrap:break-word">
<div></div><div><font color="#3333ff">At this time, I'm not aware of other open source OSIS software</font>.</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Ok, this was valuable information. I haven't really found any extensive lists of commercial or open source OSIS software, so this was good to know.</div>
<div><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style="word-wrap:break-word"><div><blockquote type="cite">
<font size="1">Also, assuming <font color="#990000">"Gen.38.7 Gen.38.10"</font> would be a valid osisRef, would also for example <font color="#990000">"Gen.38.7 Gen.38.10-Gen.38.12" </font>be? We also have a few compound references consisting of separate verses AND one or more ranges.</font></blockquote>
</div><font color="#3333ff">Yes this is valid. Any number of verses and ranges are allowed in osisRefs.</font></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>But not the best possible idea, as you mentioned, since SWORD can't handle it properly (as JSword can), right? Or were you talking here about a different case from the one we just talked about?</div>
</div></blockquote><div><br></div></div>Right. It's not recommended.</div><div><div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div class="gmail_quote"><div><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div style="word-wrap:break-word"><div><blockquote type="cite"><div><font size="1">For example, does the extension part of an osisRef always need to have a corresponding osisID somewhere? Or could we have a verse like this:</font></div>
<div><font size="1"><span style="color:rgb(153,0,0)"> <verse osisID="</span>Xxx.2.14<span style="color:rgb(153,0,0)">" sID=.... /></span></font></div><div><span style="color:rgb(153,0,0)"><font size="1"> Some text here. Some more text here. Even some more text here. And more and more text.</font></span></div>
<div><span style="color:rgb(153,0,0)"><font size="1"> <verse eID="... /></font></span></div><div><div><font size="1"><br></font></div><div><font size="1">and then have a reference like this:</font></div></div>
<div><font size="1"><span style="color:rgb(153,0,0)"> <reference osisRef="</span>Xxx.2.14!c<span style="color:rgb(153,0,0)">">Xxx 2:14</span><span style="color:rgb(153,0,0)"></reference></span></font></div>
<div><font size="1">with just the osisID "Xxx.2.14" declared but not "Xxx.2.14!c"?</font></div></blockquote></div><font color="#3333ff">Yes. This allowed. Any work can have references to another work using the reference system of that other work. As a result, there is no required referential integrity between an osisRef and an osisID.</font></div>
</blockquote><div><br></div><div>Will the reference to Xxx.2.14!c render as a reference to Xxx.2.14 or be ignored as referring to an unknown point? Well, that probably depends on the software, but how about SWORD and JSword?</div>
</div></blockquote><div><br></div></div>Both SWORD and JSword ignore the ! and what comes after it when interpreting a verse cross-reference.</div><div><div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div class="gmail_quote"><div><br></div>
<div> </div><div><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style="word-wrap:break-word">
<span style="color:rgb(51,51,255)">I'd suggest that you'd determine why the master text has it that way and to what you are targeting the OSIS and how to best represent it in OSIS. I'd suggest that you fully encode the note in both spots and somehow indicate either in markup or text that the list is the same as in another location.</span></div>
</blockquote><div><br></div><div>I'm afraid I might not have the luxury of being allowed to do that. Either our translation committee in late 1980's or someone even earlier created the different conventions of marking crossreferences, including this indirect type of a reference. </div>
<div><br></div><div>These conventions with our official translation are quite strict, and making changes to them would unfortunately require a decision from our General Synod which assembles twice a year...</div><div><br>
</div><div>When I first saw these different reference types when starting this work, I immediately asked if the indirect references could be made direct by duplicating the target reference. But the immediate answer was no.</div>
</div></blockquote><div><br></div></div>Then all you can do is have a reference to the verse that has the real note. The text of the reference would have to be understood by the reader as meaning an indirect reference. This is no different from what you see in the text.</div>
<div><br></div><div>An introduction for the work probably should explain this and other features of the document.</div><div><div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div class="gmail_quote"><div><br></div><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div style="word-wrap:break-word"><div><div></div></div><font color="#3333ff">Final suggestion, think of markup as a language. You are translating from one language (the master text) into another language (OSIS). The translation, as you are finding out, is not one-to-one, but rather thought-for-thought. It sounds like your master text is structured for print-only. OSIS is meant to be neutral to the target, not presuming paper, phone, tablet, computer, ....</font></div>
</blockquote><div><br></div><div>This is exactly how I'm trying to think of this project. I'm not a Bible expert, nor a printed book expert but mainly a web expert and thus think exactly in terms of flexibility and even future unknown application types - as much as possible.</div>
<div><br></div><div>Yes, our master text, published in 1992, was (obviously) structured for print. It means that we can only dream of marking up quotes, for example, since there are no consistent start and end markers in cases of multi-level nested quotes.</div>
<div><br></div><div>But on the other hand, of the markup that does exist in the source, there isn't much such really print-specific markup or semantics that couldn't be reproduced digitally - most of it can actually be better implemented digitally than in print. The "vague" reference being probably the only one that doesn't fit well into the digital world, all other cross-reference-related issues discussed here are very well suited for electronic publishing and hyperlinks, even though OSIS - or at least some OSIS implementations - have a hard time handling them.</div>
<div><br></div><div>About that "vague" reference: I currently consider dropping that - or actually not dropping but just implementing the "vagueness" pretty much the same way as in print: using the "|" separators between these references instead of semi-colons, but dropping the vagueness from the actual osisRef. That's loyal to our source and good OSIS, too.</div>
<div><br></div><div>But I think I'll have to stretch the boundaries of OSIS (or at least current applications) a little with the indirect references. As you mentioned, all (or even any) ready OSIS software might not be able to handle that. </div>
<div><br></div><div>Our main goal is not to produce a perfect OSIS source file but find a format that is exact and can contain all the structural information our translation contains. Being able to strictly conform to some format that already has ready-made tools to handle everything would be a bonus, but that comes only second to preserving all structure (including indirect or compound references, for example).</div>
<div><br></div><div>This is indeed preparing for the future instead of just ancient print: using markup that might not be handled by any current software, to mark structures that yet can have user-friendly implementations in the future. In some Bible-reading software, the indirect reference might be for example "See references of Matt. 8:1" and only after that provide a list or popup with those references. But in our OSIS file we'll have to stick to providing just the indirect reference, and the rest is up to the application. And I believe we are stretching the OSIS boundaries but not crossing them - you did say that <span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-size:12.800000190734863px;font-family:arial,sans-serif">I'm </span><span style="color:rgb(51,51,255);font-size:12.800000190734863px;font-family:arial,sans-serif">"free to encode it as you like. However, software that I'm familiar with won't handle exotic uses of OSIS."</span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:12.800000190734863px;font-family:arial,sans-serif"><font color="#222222">I'll certainly document well all exotic uses.</font></span></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div></div>IIRC, there is some markup for what is useful for print but not software. I think <milestone> is one of those. Maybe the only one?</div>
<div><div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div class="gmail_quote"><div><br></div><div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div style="word-wrap:break-word"><blockquote type="cite"><div class="gmail_quote"><font color="#6600cc"><b>I.</b> How do I markup a single but compound cross-reference that refers to non-adjacent verses or ranges, so that it (structurally) differs from a (more typical) note containing separate references to the same verses/ranges?</font></div>
</blockquote><div>There is no such thing as a single but compound cross-reference.</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I guess that's a matter of definitions. In our notation, these two examples mean quite different things:</div>
<div><br></div><div><font color="#990000">Lev. 3:17; Lev. 7:26-27</font></div><div>and</div><div><font color="#990000">Lev. 3:17, 7:26-27</font></div><div><br></div><div>The former one is a list of two separate cross-references (indicated by the semi-colon and space separating the two verses/ranges). The latter one (indicated by the comma spearator) is a single reference consisting of cross-references to Lev. 3:17 and Lev. 7:26-27. Of course, some definition of "cross-reference" might not accept the "recursion": a cross-reference consisting of several cross-references, but that's just terminology. For us, a single compound cross-reference is something real. And that's how the software needs to understand it, too. Once again, it might not be readily understood by some (or any) current OSIS implementation, but that's a price we have to pay in our case: limiting the selection of ready-made software that can be used.</div>
</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div></div>Yes, it is an external semantic, not an OSIS one. It should be documented for the reader. I doubt that the reader will ever see such documentation. A reader of a book may know to go to an introduction to figure out what the +, |, ;, .... mean. A user of software might not know where to go or that it is documented anywhere. For a SWORD module, the conf is a great place to document such conventions.</div>
<div><br></div><div>Since this is the osis-users list, I've tried to avoid referencing SWORD and JSword. But it appears you may be targeting them or at least are interested in how they interact with an OSIS document.</div>
<div><div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div class="gmail_quote"><div><div><br></div><div><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div style="word-wrap:break-word"><div><blockquote type="cite"><div class="gmail_quote"><div><font color="#6600cc"></font></div><div><font color="#6600cc"><b>II.</b> How do I markup a reference to a note whose source is more complex than just one verse or a contiguous range?</font></div>
</div></blockquote></div>As separate multiple ones.</div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I hope my example above, with Lev. 3:17 and 7:26-27, demonstrated why this is not possible in our case. That compound reference might in turn be one element on a list of separate references, and it simply must not break apart into two independent elements of that list.</div>
</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>-------------------</div><div>To sum up:</div><div><br></div><div>We probably won't be able to produce OSIS code that's 100% compatible with all current implementations. For us OSIS is not a value in itself (sorry!) - no one has requested for the digital Bible source file to be exactly OSIS. However, OSIS is one of the rather few ready formats we could consider to supply the necessary structural information with the Bible text, and flexible enough to be rather easily converted to any further format that users of this source file (print or digital publishers etc.) might need.</div>
<div><br></div><div>Even though we might need take some small steps off the perfect OSIS path, talking to you about these things has been very valuable in order to find ways that will keep us as close to that path and enable us to produce as ready-usable OSIS as possible. And we are very thankful to all you for that.</div>
<div><br></div><div>Blessings to all,</div><div><br></div><div>Markku</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>PS. I still might to get back to you on some issue, but hopefully not too many times now.</div></div>
</blockquote><div><br></div></div>Blessings to you too!</div><div><br></div><div>In Him,</div><div><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>DM</div></div><br></div></div><div class="im">_______________________________________________<br>
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