[osis-core] cQuote

[Troy A. Griffitts]

I agree with you that his point about it <allusion 
osisRef="pikeLambethEmail">being tough so a users should insert 
them</allusion>, is kindof backwards.  But I'd like them to keep on 
their end their algorithm that places cQuotes where they want them in 
their Bibles! :)  If they're doing an English Bible that seems to want 
cQuotes at the beginning of every new sentence within the quote, then 
that's fine, let them put the markers there.  If someone is doing a 
Spanish Bible then let them put their cQuote marking where they want: 
<milestone type="cQuote" subtype="esQBreakOpen" /> or whatever.  I would 
hate for all stylesheets and other OSIS software to be forced to include 
all the rules for each language's quote patterns.  Not that it wouldn't 
be fun to run the Spanish algorithm on an English Bible for (can't think 
of a good purpose except for fun).

Just my thoughts.

	-Troy.



Steven J. DeRose wrote:
> Just one point to add re. mail below -- The Lockman's guy is certainly 
> right that getting the quotes correct in a style processor is 
> complicated -- but that leads me to exactly the opposite conclusion: 
> That's exactly why you should mark the *quote* itself, and leave the 
> rendering to a computer algorithm.
> 
> Editors and language proofreaders are not especially consistent machines 
> for enforcing or validating very complex rules like those for quotes. 
> Computers are. Also, (good) stylesheet-writers have the kinds of skill 
> required to write out the kinds of rules he mentiones in (3) in a formal 
> way -- then, once done, it simply works for all future works (til the 
> publisher changes the rules, of course).
> 
> Also, it will all still get proofread -- surely no reputable publisher 
> (like Lockman's) would go to press having only proofread the raw 
> pointy-brackets. The result of the quote algorithm will be there in the 
> galleys, and an error in the algorithm is far more likely to be caught 
> early, than an error of typing -- one reason being that the rule error 
> will show up repeatedly; another that even when it doesn't, finding one 
> immediately tells you it's a rule coding error: your editor won't be so 
> tempted to just retype it and go on (perhaps missing the 20 others 
> places where the same author/editor/typist/whatever made the same error 
> due to differing understanding of the rules.
> 
> At 16:34 -0700 2003-10-17, Troy A. Griffitts wrote:
> 
>> In case it is of interest, or might provide some weight to my hope for 
>> the few additions I've asked to encode their data-- from Pike Lambeth, 
>> VP of Operations, Lockman:
>>
>> Hi Troy,
>>
>> It is good to hear from you. I was just wondering about the status of 
>> your
>> project.
>>
>> 1. Yes, our translators thought the new paragraph should be at verse 2. I
>> know there are more situations like this but I do not have a list.
>>
>> 2. I would agree with you. If <q> is used for OT quotes, making an
>> exceptional use for it complicates possible future processing based on 
>> the
>> <q> and </q> codes. You would then always need to account for the 
>> exception
>> in any coding. Especially since the closing code is the same. The OT 
>> city is
>> not related in any way to OT quotes. (Forgive me if I missed your 
>> point on
>> this one).
>>
>> 3. An algorithm to insert continuing quotes when rendering is more
>> complicated than one would think. It is one of those algorithms that 
>> seems
>> easy until special cases arise. I would not recommend that as the 
>> method of
>> doing it. One complicated issue is the following: There are only 
>> continuing
>> quotes if the previous punctuation is terminating such as a ".", "?", 
>> "!".
>> To identify this is not as easy as it may seem. There could be any 
>> number of
>> other codes following these terminating punctuation such as <long dash>,
>> quote, end of verse reference, footnote, and so on. It would be much more
>> reliable to have them in the data and previously proofread.
>>
>> I hope my input helps.
>>
>> I have seen a little on the OSIS specification but have not studied 
>> them. I
>> would love to have a copy of the NASB in this format to see what it is 
>> like.
>> Thanks.
>>
>> Pike
>>
>> Pike Lambeth (pike@lockman.org)
>> Vice President, Operations
>> The Lockman Foundation
>> 714-879-3055
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Troy A. Griffitts [mailto:scribe@crosswire.org]
>> Sent: Tuesday, October 14, 2003 5:23 PM
>> To: Pike Lambeth
>> Subject: Re: Lockman Bibles for the Sword project
>>
>>
>> Pike,
>>     Troy, from CrossWire, here.  My apologies for the long delay in 
>> getting
>> to your text.  We have just finished a new version of our engine and
>> client software for most platforms we support that include support for
>> all the detailed markup data in the NASB that you sent.  I've just
>> started converting your data now and it should be ready as a SWORD
>> module in a few weeks.
>>
>>     As you might also know, we're involved with the American Bible 
>> Society,
>> Wycliffe, SBL, UBS, IBS, and many others to develop a common XML markup
>> standard for Bibles:
>>
>>     http://www.bibletechnologies.org
>>
>>     Version 2.0 of the OSIS (Open Scripture Information Standard) spec
>> should be available any day, and I have been fighting for a few new
>> mechanism so that I might be able to completely encode your NASB data in
>> the OSIS specification.
>>
>>     I have a few questions where your comments might help me succeed in
>> getting these tags added:
>>
>> 1) To quote your data from Matthew 8:34-9:2
>>
>> {{40:8}}34 And behold<MG2400>, the whole<MG3956> city<MG4172>
>> came<MG1831> out to meet<MG5222> Jesus<MG2424>; and when they
>> saw<MG3708> Him, <RA>they implored<MG3870> Him to leave<MG3327> their
>> region<MG3725>.
>> CHAPTER 9
>> <SH>A Paralytic Healed
>> {{40:9}}1 Getting<MG1684> into a boat<MG4143>, Jesus crossed<MG1276>
>> over<MG1276> {the sea} and came<MG2064> to <RA>His own<MG2398> 
>> city<MG4172>.
>> <PM>{{40:9}}2 <RA>And they brought<MG4374> to Him a
>> <RB>paralytic<MG3885> lying<MG906> on a bed<MG2825b>. Seeing<MG3708>
>> their faith<MG4102>, Jesus<MG2424> said<MG3004> to the
>> paralytic<MG3885>, <RS>``<RC>Take<MG2293> courage<MG2293>,
>> <N1>son<MG5043>; <RD>your sins<MG266> are forgiven<MG863>."<RT>
>>
>> There is a <PM> (paragraph break mark) after verse 1 in chapter 9.  I
>> would guess that this means that your editors disagreed with Jerome and
>> think the paragraph ending Chapter 8 continues into the first verse of
>> Chapter 9, which seem to me to be a fine conclusion.  Can you confirm
>> that 9:1 belongs with the paragraph at the end of 8? (or any similar
>> case where the NASB does not feel that a new paragraph begins at each
>> chapter mark).
>>
>> 2) OT cites in the NT.  Currently, there is no OSIS tag for such an
>> entity.  I feel that a typological distinction is common enough in most
>> modern translations (you use SMALL CAPS) to warrant a tag for such a
>> thing.  The few OSIS editors that I am arguing with feel that we should
>> just use <q> (quote) to mark these, and possibly set these off with a
>> special type, for example <q type="OTCite">stone which the builders
>> rejected</q>
>> I personally feel that <q> assigns a misleading literal quote attribute
>> to the text (which is usually not cited word for word).  Do you have any
>> thoughts regarding the issue?
>>
>> 3) Continuation quotes.  This one I'm not sure about.  Your data seems
>> to include continuation quote marks in many places.  One osis editor
>> feels that these should not ever be marked in the data and that an
>> algorithm should insert them in the correct places when rendering.  I
>> want to faithfully encode your data, without losing anything.  Do you
>> feel that the continuation quote marks could be removed in an encoding
>> of your data and then faithfully reconstructed with an algorithm?
>>
>>
>> Thank you for your time on this.  I would love to give you back my
>> conversion script for your data if it would be useful to you.  Our
>> software has started supporting much of the OSIS specification in this
>> last release, and we are planning to use it as our default encoding for
>> the foreseeable future.
>>
>>
>>     In His Grace,
>>
>>         -Troy A. Griffitts
>>         Director
>>         CrossWire Bible Society
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Pike Lambeth wrote:
>>
>>>  Mr. Hughes,
>>>
>>>  Thank you for requesting the use of the NASB, Amplified and LBLA 
>>> Bibles in
>>>  The Sword Project.
>>>
>>>  I downloaded the software and have been working with it. It seems to 
>>> be a
>>>  very robust and powerful program.
>>>
>>>  We will consider the options you've proposed. However, with the 
>>> holidays
>>>  quickly approaching, I don't think we will be able to make a decision
>>
>> until
>>
>>>  sometime January.
>>>
>>>  Two initial questions we have are:
>>>
>>>  Can you provide an estimate of the percentage each operating system 
>>> holds
>>
>> in
>>
>>>  your user base? If possible, please include the BibleTime Unix 
>>> platform in
>>>  the mix and any others based on The Sword Project you know about.
>>>
>>>  We have cross-references and translator's notes that are normally in 
>>> the
>>>  center-column of a center column reference Bible and a NASB database 
>>> with
>>>  our Strong's type numbering system imbedded which is tied to our
>>>  Hebrew-Aramaic, and Greek dictionaries for the NASB. Is it possible for
>>>  these works to be included in a NASB package for your software?
>>>
>>>  Thanks,
>>>  Pike
>>>
>>>  Pike Lambeth (pike@lockman.org)
>>>  Vice President, Operations
>>
>>  > The Lockman Foundation
>>
>>>  714-879-3055
> 
> 
>