[osis-core] [Fwd: Re: Lockman Bibles for the Sword project]

[Troy A. Griffitts]

Pike,

> 2. I would agree with you. If <q> is used for OT quotes, making an
> exceptional use for it complicates possible future processing based on the
> <q> and </q> codes. You would then always need to account for the exception
> in any coding. Especially since the closing code is the same. The OT city is
> not related in any way to OT quotes. (Forgive me if I missed your point on
> this one).

Not sure if this was a typo on your part or mine in my first message to 
you, but the 2 solutions proposed for OT citations in the NT are:

<q type="otCite">the Stone which the builders rejected</q>

and

<cite type="ot">the Stone which the builders rejected</cite>


We already have <q> in OSIS, and the recommendation which I opposed (and 
I think you agreed with me) was to use <q> just adding an 'attribute 
value' of 'otCite' for 'type' (NOTE: cite, as in citation, not 'city', 
which is what you mention in your response above-- hence, maybe I 
mistyped it somewhere in my first message to you).

I understand your point about the exception for <q> and the ending </q> 
mark not having the distinction, but to their defense, this is fairly 
common in XML.  Most XML tools will consider the entire
<q type="otCite">text</q> as one 'container' of data and will report the 
attribute value [type="otCite"] for that container (so the end mark that 
seems ambiguous really isn't a problem for standard XML tools).

I had proposed the latter, <cite>, solution for mostly the same reason 
you gave: it removes the special processing exception for all <q> marks 
to make sure they're not OT quotes.  I would bet most people will have a 
basic OSIS renderer that will just change all <q>test</q> containers to 
"text" and not look at any attribute values, so all these OT citations 
would end up quoted.  I think <cite> relays a more useful meaning.  Most 
people think of citing a work as footnoting as the source, but not 
necessarily quoting word for word, unless of course there are " marks 
included.  At least a basic OSIS renderer that didn't handle special 
typography for these wouldn't produce something that was misleading to 
the reader.

> 3. An algorithm to insert continuing quotes when rendering is more
> complicated than one would think...

This was great input.


> I hope my input helps.

Yes, all of your comments (even if you had disagreed with me, the same 
would have been true) have been very appreciated.


> I have seen a little on the OSIS specification but have not studied them. I
> would love to have a copy of the NASB in this format to see what it is like.
> Thanks.

I have an OSIS 2.0 (well, pre 2.0, the new spec should be released in a 
week or so) version of your NASB data validating against the 
specification.  I am using extension mechanisms (ways to put extra stuff 
not included in the specification) for the things we've talked about in 
the last few emails.  If we get them added to the spec before it is 
released, I can use the officially sanctioned mechanisms for these instead.

I'll keep ya posted on the progress.  Thank you for your encouragement 
and support.  You've been such a refreshingly enjoyable person to work with!

	-Troy.



> 
> Pike
> 
> Pike Lambeth (pike@lockman.org)
> Vice President, Operations
> The Lockman Foundation
> 714-879-3055
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Troy A. Griffitts [mailto:scribe@crosswire.org]
> Sent: Tuesday, October 14, 2003 5:23 PM
> To: Pike Lambeth
> Subject: Re: Lockman Bibles for the Sword project
> 
> 
> Pike,
> 	Troy, from CrossWire, here.  My apologies for the long delay in getting
> to your text.  We have just finished a new version of our engine and
> client software for most platforms we support that include support for
> all the detailed markup data in the NASB that you sent.  I've just
> started converting your data now and it should be ready as a SWORD
> module in a few weeks.
> 
> 	As you might also know, we're involved with the American Bible Society,
> Wycliffe, SBL, UBS, IBS, and many others to develop a common XML markup
> standard for Bibles:
> 
> 	http://www.bibletechnologies.org
> 
> 	Version 2.0 of the OSIS (Open Scripture Information Standard) spec
> should be available any day, and I have been fighting for a few new
> mechanism so that I might be able to completely encode your NASB data in
> the OSIS specification.
> 
> 	I have a few questions where your comments might help me succeed in
> getting these tags added:
> 
> 1) To quote your data from Matthew 8:34-9:2
> 
> {{40:8}}34 And behold<MG2400>, the whole<MG3956> city<MG4172>
> came<MG1831> out to meet<MG5222> Jesus<MG2424>; and when they
> saw<MG3708> Him, <RA>they implored<MG3870> Him to leave<MG3327> their
> region<MG3725>.
> CHAPTER 9
> <SH>A Paralytic Healed
> {{40:9}}1 Getting<MG1684> into a boat<MG4143>, Jesus crossed<MG1276>
> over<MG1276> {the sea} and came<MG2064> to <RA>His own<MG2398> city<MG4172>.
> <PM>{{40:9}}2 <RA>And they brought<MG4374> to Him a
> <RB>paralytic<MG3885> lying<MG906> on a bed<MG2825b>. Seeing<MG3708>
> their faith<MG4102>, Jesus<MG2424> said<MG3004> to the
> paralytic<MG3885>, <RS>``<RC>Take<MG2293> courage<MG2293>,
> <N1>son<MG5043>; <RD>your sins<MG266> are forgiven<MG863>."<RT>
> 
> There is a <PM> (paragraph break mark) after verse 1 in chapter 9.  I
> would guess that this means that your editors disagreed with Jerome and
> think the paragraph ending Chapter 8 continues into the first verse of
> Chapter 9, which seem to me to be a fine conclusion.  Can you confirm
> that 9:1 belongs with the paragraph at the end of 8? (or any similar
> case where the NASB does not feel that a new paragraph begins at each
> chapter mark).
> 
> 2) OT cites in the NT.  Currently, there is no OSIS tag for such an
> entity.  I feel that a typological distinction is common enough in most
> modern translations (you use SMALL CAPS) to warrant a tag for such a
> thing.  The few OSIS editors that I am arguing with feel that we should
> just use <q> (quote) to mark these, and possibly set these off with a
> special type, for example <q type="OTCite">stone which the builders
> rejected</q>
> I personally feel that <q> assigns a misleading literal quote attribute
> to the text (which is usually not cited word for word).  Do you have any
> thoughts regarding the issue?
> 
> 3) Continuation quotes.  This one I'm not sure about.  Your data seems
> to include continuation quote marks in many places.  One osis editor
> feels that these should not ever be marked in the data and that an
> algorithm should insert them in the correct places when rendering.  I
> want to faithfully encode your data, without losing anything.  Do you
> feel that the continuation quote marks could be removed in an encoding
> of your data and then faithfully reconstructed with an algorithm?
> 
> 
> Thank you for your time on this.  I would love to give you back my
> conversion script for your data if it would be useful to you.  Our
> software has started supporting much of the OSIS specification in this
> last release, and we are planning to use it as our default encoding for
> the foreseeable future.
> 
> 
> 	In His Grace,
> 
> 		-Troy A. Griffitts
> 		Director
> 		CrossWire Bible Society
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pike Lambeth wrote:
> 
>>Mr. Hughes,
>>
>>Thank you for requesting the use of the NASB, Amplified and LBLA Bibles in
>>The Sword Project.
>>
>>I downloaded the software and have been working with it. It seems to be a
>>very robust and powerful program.
>>
>>We will consider the options you've proposed. However, with the holidays
>>quickly approaching, I don't think we will be able to make a decision
> 
> until
> 
>>sometime January.
>>
>>Two initial questions we have are:
>>
>>Can you provide an estimate of the percentage each operating system holds
> 
> in
> 
>>your user base? If possible, please include the BibleTime Unix platform in
>>the mix and any others based on The Sword Project you know about.
>>
>>We have cross-references and translator's notes that are normally in the
>>center-column of a center column reference Bible and a NASB database with
>>our Strong's type numbering system imbedded which is tied to our
>>Hebrew-Aramaic, and Greek dictionaries for the NASB. Is it possible for
>>these works to be included in a NASB package for your software?
>>
>>Thanks,
>>Pike
>>
>>Pike Lambeth (pike@lockman.org)
>>Vice President, Operations
>>The Lockman Foundation
>>714-879-3055
> 
>