[osis-core] references with grains

[Patrick Durusau]

Todd,

Todd Tillinghast wrote:
> Steve and Patrick,
> 
> Note: This issue needs to be made clear so that people encoding the
> extra-Biblical text of a scripture portion can properly express the
> references for scripture that normally gets rendered inline in the
> printed from.
> 
> It seems we are all clear on the range case.
> 
> Consider the following _boundary_ cases:
> <reference osisRef="1Tim.3.8@s[They]-1Tim.3.8"/>  Does this mean from
> "They" to the end of 1Tim 3:8 in the same way that <reference
> osisRef="1Tim.3.7-1Tim.3.8"/> means from the first of verse 7 to the end
> of verse 8.
> 
That fits with Steve's point analysis. And would meet the need to 
include only part of a reference in another text.


> <reference osisRef="1Tim.3.8-1Tim.3.8"/>  Does this mean from the start
> of verse 8 to the end of verse 8 the same way that <reference
> osisRef="1Tim.3.8"/> means from the start of verse 8 to the end of verse
> 8?
> 
Yes, rather pathological but I suppose that is a meaningful reference. 
Better than throwing an error.


> <reference osisRef="1Tim.3.8-1Tim.3.8@s[They]"/>  Does this mean from
> the start of verse 8 to the end of the string "They"?
> 
Yes.


> <reference osisRef="1Tim.3.8@s[They]-1Tim.3.8@s[They]"/> This should
> produce just "They" and could be equivalent to <reference
> osisRef="1Tim.3.8@s[They]"/> under case a below?
> 

Hmmm, to be consistent with the point analysis yes. Not sure about the 
"produce" part of the statement. Could put you out at that point in the 
text (as opposed to delivering it to you). Think of a lexicon with all 
the usages listed.


> Now thinking about references with grains and no range (using Steve's
> options from below):
> 
> Option a: Just the text inside the brackets.  I don't like this option
> because it does not do much for us.
> 
> Option b: From the start of the text inside the brackets to the end of
> the verse.  This carries a similar meaning to references without grains
> and no range.  In this case we don't force the encoder to create the
> right side of a range with a grain with the last text in the verse.
> 
> Option c: This is useful because it lets us encode a point.  
> 
> My vote is for option c because it let us encode a point but only given
> we allow <reference osisRef="1Tim.3.8@s[They]-1Tim.3.8"/> to mean from
> "T" to the end of the verse.
> 
> However this does seem to draw in to question the fact that we allow
> <reference osisRef="1Tim.3.8"/> to mean from the start of verse 8 to the
> end of verse 8 and not simply the start of verse 8.
> 
I think the difference is in pointing at a container osisRef="1Tim.3.8" 
versus pointing inside the container, which is the grain, thus:
osisRef="1Tim.3.8@s[They]-1Tim.3.8.

Steve?

Hope you are having a great day!

Patrick





> Todd
> 
> 
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: osis-core-admin@bibletechnologieswg.org [mailto:osis-core-
>>admin@bibletechnologieswg.org] On Behalf Of Steven J. DeRose
>>Sent: Wednesday, October 15, 2003 11:01 AM
>>To: osis-core@bibletechnologieswg.org
>>Subject: Re: [osis-core] references with grains
>>
>>At 11:12 -0400 2003-10-13, Patrick Durusau wrote:
>>
>>>Todd,
>>>
>>>Will defer to Steve when he gives a canonical answer but here goes:
>>
>>Yeah, right. Let me go get my orange hat....
>>
>>
>>>Todd Tillinghast wrote:
>>>
>>>>Consider the following references:
>>>>
>>>><reference osisRef="1Tim.3.8@s[They]"/>
>>>><reference osisRef="1Tim.3.8@s[They]-1Tim.3.8@s[money.]"/>
>>>>
>>>>When the last string in 1Tim.3.8 is "money."
>>>>
>>>>Question 1: Are the two references equivalent?
>>>>
>>>
>>>What do you mean by equivalent?
>>>
>>>You get the same content (possibly) but that depends on the behavior
>>>of the application. One that returns verses in response to this
>>>query will give the same content but that does not mean the
>>>references are equivalent.
>>>
>>>
>>>>Question 2: Are we saying that when a grain in present in the first
>>>
> part
> 
>>>>of a range that it is the starting with the text in the brackets and
>>>>with the second part of the range that text in the brackets is the
>>>
>>>Assuming you mean to say "end of the text" after "brakets is the..."
>>>I think the answer is yes.
>>>
>>>
>>>>Question 3: If you specify an osisRef with NO range AND a grain does
>>>>that mean a) a point before the string in the brackets
>>>>b) the contents within the brackets
>>>>c) the text stating at the first of the text in the brackets to the
>>>
> end
> 
>>>>of the verse.
>>>>
>>>
>>>I think c) but what you get from that point on (to the end of the
>>>verse, etc.) is application specific (or chosen by the user).
>>>
>>
>>So far we've left it completely ambiguous where a grain ends -- I've
>>found this vaguely troubling, but not high enough priority to worry
>>about, given we're the only kids on the XML block who have *any* way
>>to point to things smaller than elements at all.
>>
>>I would suggest that if there *is* a range encoded, the result should
>>extend from the start of the string of the grain of the expression
>>left of the hyphen, up to the end of the string of the grain of the
>>expression right of the hyphen.
>>
>>If there is *not* a range, just a grain on the end of a verse or
>>similar ref, then it seems to me the "default" result should be either
>>
>>a) the scope of the string itself (per example above, just the word
> 
> "They")
> 
>>    or
>>
>>b) from the start of the grain ("T") to the end of the unit specified
>>by the osisRef up to but not including the grain (per example above,
>>verse 8).
>>
>>Option (a) is easier to explain and slightly easier to implement. I
>>don't see much value in (b).
>>
>>I suppose there is also
>>
>>c) The point immediately preceding the "T". No scope, just a point
>>location.
>>
>>I wouldn't object strongly to that; with a little arm-twisting I
>>might even get to like it.
>>
>>Thoughts?
>>
>>S
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> 
> 
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-- 
Patrick Durusau
Director of Research and Development
Society of Biblical Literature
Patrick.Durusau@sbl-site.org
Chair, V1 - Text Processing: Office and Publishing Systems Interface
Co-Editor, ISO 13250, Topic Maps -- Reference Model

Topic Maps: Human, not artificial, intelligence at work!