[osis-core] paragraph break defended once again.
Troy A. Griffitts
osis-core@bibletechnologieswg.org
Tue, 14 Oct 2003 12:34:15 -0700
Chris,
Thank you for the reply. I still disagree about both cases. The point
about MSS usage was for fragments. In an ancient fragment, we don't
always have or know the markings.
But the MSS usage was only meant as supporting matter. My real problem
right now is that I disagree with you about the paragraph breaks in the
NASB. Let me be explicite in my cite of what I feel is ambiguous markup
in the NASB and maybe we can find an agreement on at least this case--
which might move us closer to an agreement on the topic.
I believe these text divisions are exactly the same as we use paragraph
markers.
Matthew 1:25-2:1 in Lockman's data:
{{40:1}}25 <N1>but kept<MG3756, 1097> her a virgin<MG3756, 1097>
until<MG2193> she <RA>gave<MG5088> birth<MG5088> to a Son<MG5207>; and
<RB>he called<MG2564> His name<MG3686> Jesus<MG2424>.
CHAPTER 2
<SH>The Visit of the Magi
{{40:2}}1 Now<MG1161> after Jesus<MG2424> was <RA>born<MG1080> in
Bethlehem<MG965> of Judea<MG2453> in the days<MG2250> of
<RB>Herod<MG2264> the king<MG935>, <N1>magi<MG3097> from the east<MG395>
arrived<MG3854> in Jerusalem<MG2414>, saying<MG3004>,
Notice no <PM> markers are present in the above. And by your proposal
that Lockman wishes a new paragraph break here, it seems to work fine.
Matthew 8:34-9:2
{{40:8}}34 And behold<MG2400>, the whole<MG3956> city<MG4172>
came<MG1831> out to meet<MG5222> Jesus<MG2424>; and when they
saw<MG3708> Him, <RA>they implored<MG3870> Him to leave<MG3327> their
region<MG3725>.
CHAPTER 9
<SH>A Paralytic Healed
{{40:9}}1 Getting<MG1684> into a boat<MG4143>, Jesus crossed<MG1276>
over<MG1276> {the sea} and came<MG2064> to <RA>His own<MG2398> city<MG4172>.
<PM>{{40:9}}2 <RA>And they brought<MG4374> to Him a
<RB>paralytic<MG3885> lying<MG906> on a bed<MG2825b>. Seeing<MG3708>
their faith<MG4102>, Jesus<MG2424> said<MG3004> to the
paralytic<MG3885>, <RS>``<RC>Take<MG2293> courage<MG2293>,
<N1>son<MG5043>; <RD>your sins<MG266> are forgiven<MG863>."<RT>
Notice the <PM> marker after Matthew 9:1 This leads me to believe that
they indent 9:1 to go with the previous paragraph ending Chapter 8
Thanks for your time with me on this one.
-Troy.
Chris Little wrote:
> Troy,
>
> Sorry, been too busy & ill-connected to get a reply out.
>
> Troy A. Griffitts wrote:
>
>>> But what's more, I really can't conceive of any use for it. Could
>>> someone think up a use case for it? I would concede if there were
>>> some actual use in marking e.g. manuscripts.
>>
>>
>> http://www-user.uni-bremen.de/~wie/Vaticanus/general.html#div
>
>
> I see some different sorts of text divisions described. The description
> is too limited to know for certain, but I would assume these divisions
> can still be placed inside a container. If they are meaningful units,
> by any criterion, they probably have a beginning and an end.
>
> In any case, they are not paragraphs and a paragraph break marker is
> inappropriate.
>
>>> There is no ambiguity as to what is intended by their use of their
>>> DTD in their document--in fact it's probably the cleanest & most
>>> lucidly marked document I've ever encountered.
>>
>>
>> Well, to cite an example for you. Just looking briefly, reading the
>> text would make one assume that there should be a paragraph break
>> between Mat. 1 and Mat 2. Also, if I had to guess, I would probably
>> not place a paragraph break between Mat. 8 and 9.
>>
>> I just don't want to have to read the text and guess-- that's all.
>
>
> In the specific case for which you want this marker, the NASB, there's
> no ambiguity though. Chapters start new paragraphs and new paragraphs
> are started at each paragraph break marker according to the Lockman
> markup. Ask someone at Lockman and I'm confident they will tell you the
> same. They make the assumption that chapter divisions are meaningful
> units.
>
> In the case of NASB, paragraphs span neither the Matt.1/Matt.2 nor
> Matt.8/Matt.9 chapter boundaries. In the case of the first, there is a
> paragraph spanning Matt.1.18-Matt.1.25 and another from
> Matt.2.1-Matt.2.6. In the case of the latter, there is a paragraph
> spanning Matt.8.28-Matt.8.34 and another from Matt.9.1-Matt.9.8.
>
> Rendering in print versions and in the version for Logos (which is
> actually published by Lockman, IIRC) reflect this layout.
>
> Even in the case of the most controversial chapter division in the
> Bible, the Rev.12/Rev.13 division, which most people now think puts a
> verse from Rev.12 inside of Rev.13, grouped with what should have been
> the first verse in Rev.13.1, Lockman starts a new paragraph at the
> beginning of the chapter. (They also end it after half a verse and
> start a new paragraph, but both paragraphs are in Rev.13 and in the same
> section.)
>
>>> Let me put it this way: Paragraph breaks necessarily follow (or
>>> possibly come between?) paragraphs. In order to have one, you must
>>> have the other. Paragraphs are blocks of content that deserve to go
>>> inside a container (<p>). What Troy is suggesting is that there is
>>> no such thing as a paragraph in the NASB--only paragraph breaks.
>>
>>
>> I am not suggesting that the NASB does not have a concept of a
>> paragraph container. I'm suggesting that they do not have unambiguous
>> markup of these, and I don't feel it is the encoder's task to
>> unambiguate the containers.
>>
>> I also see other uses for a paragraph break marker, like in mss markup
>> or other fragment markup (possibly including modern document segments)
>
>
> Using <milestone type="paraBreak"/> for mss markup in texts like the one
> you cited seems like it requires an excess of interpretation. They may
> act like paragraphs, but they don't seem to be called paragraphs and
> they don't look like paragraphs. If we want a milestone marker for mss,
> I would concede to whatever is thought appropriate by people who know
> more about the subject than I. I would be inclined to either punt to
> the mss markup WG--they seem like a lazy bunch since they never do any
> work, so maybe they just need encouragement :) --or to adopt a more
> generic section break marker. I have a feeling that section break is
> too generic to be meaningful (absent myriad subTypes) to be useful for
> mss markup, while paragraph break is inappropriate on the basis of the
> sample given.
>
> For modern document segments, I would suggest using milestones. We
> shouldn't be converting </p> to <milestone type="paraBreak"/> but rather
> to <p sID="..."/>.
>
> --Chris
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> osis-core mailing list
> osis-core@bibletechnologieswg.org
> http://www.bibletechnologieswg.org/mailman/listinfo/osis-core