[osis-core] quotes
Todd Tillinghast
osis-core@bibletechnologieswg.org
Fri, 18 Oct 2002 20:56:29 -0600
I am interested to hear what others have to say about the "continuation
quotation mark" being a presentation issue vs. an authorship issue. (You
already heard my opinion.)
Question: Are there known cases in printed versions where the same
translation is rendered differently?
After encoding a few things, I am of the mind to recommend using milestones
for ALL quotes other than short/simple quotes. As a result I would be
infavor of adding back in a special milestone specifically for quotes.
Thoughts?
A little more below.
Todd
>
> I'm impressed with your encoding, BUT....
>
> For this example, I would still rather use milestones. And for the code
> I'm writing that tries to turn "'` into <q> tags, I'm tempted to ALWAYS
> use milestones, so as not to worry about crossing other boundaries.
>
> Regarding my real immediate question though... I explicitly stated in my
> first email (because I KNEW YOU SPECIFICALLY would recommend
> segmentation :) ) that I didn't think segmentation was a good mechanism,
> and I tried to state a very easily confused concept that SHOULD BE
> DRASTICALLY kept separate-- in my mind, at least. To quote:
>
>
> >>1) Segmentation should not be the suggested mechanism do this.
> >>Segmentation is for CODING PROBLEMS of hierarchy and constitute ONE
> >>LOGICAL element, when reconstructed programmatically. This is a very
> >>different thing than actual content segmentation symbols intended for
> >>the reader.
I agree that the splitID should NOT be encoded for this purpose of
identifiying paragraphs. Only because it is consistently there for other
reasons do I suggest it be used to identify quotes that are split across
multiple paragraphs.
>
>
> concept 1) OSIS <q> with attribute: splitID. This has absolutely NO
> bearing on presentation/text meaning, and is ONLY used because of XML
> limitations on hierarchy. We can attach NO OTHER MEANING TO THIS, in my
> opinion-- and this is very important.
>
> It's the same problem some of the SIL guys had on first glance with
> another scenario: "Hello", said Troy, "how are you?" They wanted to
> know if this quote should be the same quote and use splitID. THE
> DEFINITIVE ANSWER is NO. splitID segmentation explicates NO meaning to
> the text; it is only a coding mechanism (and possibly temporary, at
> that) to alleviate XML hierarchy problems.
>
> concept 2) a quote in the English language can be segmented.
>
>
> Other than having the semantic english word 'segmented' in common, these
> 2 concepts should have NOTHING to do with each other-- and are easily
> confused, and easily bled together.
>
>
> Now, back to your email. As stated, for the most part, I like your
> encoding of the Jeremiah text, except that I will probably not mix
> hierarchy sub-elements when I'm working on generating these tags
> programmatically. e.g. I won't have <verse><p></p></verse> in one
> place, and have <p><verse></verse></p> in another. My code won't be
> smart enough to figure out what's better.
>
> BUT and FINALLY, I still think it's necessary to give an AUTHOR the
> ability of stating that he wants to use quote continuation mark at a
> certain location.
>
> There is a fine line here, but I tend to think this is an _authorative_
> style, and not just a _publishing_ style.
>
> Just my opinion. I'm interested to hear your rebuttals and others'
> thoughts.
>
>
> -Troy.
>
>
>
> Todd Tillinghast wrote:
> > Troy,
> >
> > I think that what is encoded should strictly be where the quote starts
> > and ends. This can be accomplished either with a milestone or with a
> > <q> element. If a <q> element is used then either the <q> element OR
> > the other overlapping elements would be segmented. The fact that a
> > quote mark is placed at the first of a paragraph that continues a quote
> > from a prior paragraph is a presentation issue and different styles will
> > handle this differently.
> >
> > I picked out Bible.TEV:Matt.13 for test encoding for the reasons you
> > have run into.
> >
> > If you go with segmentation, I personally think that it is more natural
> > to segment the <q> element rather than the <p> and possibly other
> > elements.
> >
> > The benefit of segmenting the <q> element is that the presence of a
> > "splitID" attribute indicates that the quote has been split, which makes
> > the job of rendering a quote mark at the start of a paragraph that
> > continues a quote fairly simple.
> >
> > This is how I would encode it:
> > <div>
> > <p>
> > <verse osisID="Jer.2.1">Moreover the word of the LORD
> > came to me, saying,</verse>
> > <verse osisID="Jer.2.2">
> > <q splitID="Q-Jer.2.2-A">Go and cry in the
> > hearing of Jerusalem, saying, <q splitID="Q-Jer.2.2-B">Thus says the
> > LORD:<q splitID="Q-Jer.2.2-C">I remember you, The kindness of your
> > youth, The love of your betrothal, When you went after Me in the
> > wilderness, In a land not sown. </q>
> > </q>
> > </q>
> > </verse>
> > <verse osisID="Jer.2.3">
> > <q splitID="Q-Jer.2.2-A">
> > <q splitID="Q-Jer.2.2-B">
> > <q splitID="Q-Jer.2.2-C">Israel
> > [was] holiness to the LORD, The firstfruits of His increase. All that
> > devour him will offend; Disaster will come upon them,</q>
> > <!--True Close Q-Jer.2.2-C
> > -->says the LORD.</q>
> > <!-- True Close Q-Jer.2.2-B -->
> > </q>
> > <!--NO True Close Q-Jer.2.2-A -->
> > </verse>
> > </p>
> > <p>
> > <q splitID="Q-Jer.2.2-A">
> > <verse osisID="Jer.2.4">Hear the word of the
> > LORD, O house of Jacob and all the families of the house of
> > Israel.</verse>
> > <verse osisID="Jer.2.5">Thus says the LORD:<q
> > splitID="Q-Jer.2.5-A">What injustice have your fathers found in Me, That
> > they have gone far from Me, Have followed idols, And have become
> > idolaters?</q>
> > </verse>
> > <q splitID="Q-Jer.2.5-A">
> > <verse osisID="Jer.2.6">Neither did they
> > say,<q>
> > <!-- No need for a split
> > here --> Where [is] the LORD, Who brought us up out of the land of
> > Egypt, Who led us through the wilderness, Through a land of deserts and
> > pits, Through a land of drought and the shadow of death, Through a land
> > that no one crossed And where no one dwelt?</q>
> > </verse>
> > <verse osisID="Jer.2.7">I brought you
> > into a bountiful country, To eat its fruit and its goodness. But when
> > you entered, you defiled My land And made My heritage an
> > abomination.</verse>
> > <verse osisID="Jer.2.8">The priests did
> > not say,<q>Where [is] the LORD?</q>And those who handle the law did not
> > know Me; The rulers also transgressed against Me; The prophets
> > prophesied by Baal, And walked after [things that] do not
> > profit.</verse>
> > <verse osisID="Jer.2.9">
> > <!--****conflict here**** no
> > ending "-->
> > </verse>
> > </q>
> > <!-- True Close of Q-Jer.2.5-A -->
> > </q>
> > <!-- True Close of Q-Jer.2.2-A -->
> > </p>
> > </div>
> > Not sure if I got the part near Jer.2.9 right since that is where you
> > left off and I don't have a printed NKJV. Hopefully you get the idea.
> >
> > Also note that I started the split quote "Q-Jer.2.5-A" inside the
> > <verse> element Jer.2.5 but then had the continuation of the <q> element
> > "Q-Jer.2.5-A" contain the <verse> elements for Jer.2.6, Jer.2.7, Jer.2.8
> > and Jer.2.9. This leaves "Q-Jer.2.5-A" split into only two pieces but
> > also has it contained within and containing <verse> elements that are
> > parallel.
> >
> > The placement of the continuation quote mark when rendering would be
> > identified by a <q> that is split prior to the first "text" in the
> > paragraph.
> >
> > The other option is to use milestones. I am not really opposed to using
> > milestones for quotes, especially for cases like this. But I don't
> > think there is any need for <q type="continuation"> since there will
> > MUST already be the information provided by "splitID" attributes.
> >
> > What do you think?
> >
> > Todd
> >
> >
> >
> >>Hey guys. Got some quote questions for you all. Again, I go to
> >>extremely difficult problems in the minor prophets. Please see after
> >>example for my immediate question.
> >>
> >>Here's an excerpt from the NKJV, Jer 2:1-. I've tried to 'codify' the
> >>quotes and indentation to help see the hierarchy:
> >>
> >>_________________________
> >>
> >>1. Moreover the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 2.
> >>"
> >> Go and cry in the hearing of Jerusalem, saying,
> >> '
> >> Thus says the LORD:
> >> "
> >> I remember you, The kindness of your youth, The love of your
> >> betrothal, When you went after Me in the wilderness, In a
> >> land not sown. 3. Israel [was] holiness to the LORD, The
> >> firstfruits of His increase. All that devour him will
> >> offend; Disaster will come upon them,
> >> "
> >> says the LORD.
> >> '
> >>"
> >>4. Hear the word of the LORD, O house of Jacob and all the
> >>families of the house of Israel. 5. Thus says the LORD:
> >>"
> >> What injustice have your fathers found in Me, That they have gone
> >> far from Me, Have followed idols, And have become idolaters?
> >> 6. Neither did they say,
> >> '
> >> Where [is] the LORD, Who brought us up out of the land of Egypt,
> >> Who led us through the wilderness, Through a land of deserts
> >> and pits, Through a land of drought and the shadow of death,
> >> Through a land that no one crossed And where no one dwelt?
> >> '
> >> 7. I brought you into a bountiful country, To eat its fruit
> >> and its goodness. But when you entered, you defiled My land
> >> And made My heritage an abomination. 8. The priests did not say,
> >> '
> >> Where [is] the LORD?
> >> '
> >> And those who handle the law did not know Me; The rulers
> >> also transgressed against Me; The prophets prophesied
> >> by Baal, And walked after [things that] do not profit.
> >> 9.
> >><****conflict here**** no ending ">
> >>"
> >> Therefore I will yet bring charges against you,
> >>"
> >>says the LORD,...
> >>
> >>
> >>_________________________
> >>
> >>Verse 9 has a 'continuation quote' that started in verse 5. I think
> >
> > the
> >
> >>NKJV does this when a new paragraph begins and the quote spans the
> >>paragraph, eg.
> >>
> >>This is a long quote, "Hello this is my first paragraph.
> >>"This is my second paragraph."
> >>
> >>Here is another example from John 7:21:
> >>_________________________
> >>
> >>21. Jesus answered and said to them, "I did one work, and you all
> >
> > marvel.
> >
> >>22. "Moses therefore gave you circumcision (not that it is from Moses,
> >>but from the fathers), and you circumcise a man on the Sabbath.
> >>23. "If a man receives circumcision on the Sabbath, so that the law of
> >>Moses should not be broken, are you angry with Me because I made a man
> >>completely well on the Sabbath?
> >>24. "Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous
> >>judgment."
> >>_________________________
> >>
> >>the quote starts in 21, and continues thru 24. There are
> >
> > 'continuation
> >
> >>quotes' starting verses 22, 23, and 24.
> >>
> >>
> >>HOW IN THE WORLD SHOULD WE MARK THESE UP?
> >>
> >>My thoughts:
> >>
> >>1) Segmentation should not be the suggested mechanism do this.
> >>Segmentation is for CODING PROBLEMS of hierarchy and constitute ONE
> >>LOGICAL element, when reconstructed programmatically. This is a very
> >>different thing that actual content segmentation symbols intended for
> >>the reader.
> >>
> >>2) suggestion: <q type="continuation" />
> >>
> >>3) alternate suggestion: no markup at all. Just remove the
> >
> > continuation
> >
> >>quotes and let the renderer decide that it needs to insert the
> >>appropriate "'` or whatever/whenever the renderer feels the need to
> >
> > show
> >
> >>continuation quotes.
> >>
> >>I think enabling authors to mark these up in text is best, so I prefer
> >>something like the suggestion in 2.
> >>
> >>Thoughts?
> >> -Troy.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
>
>
>