[osis-core] Re: Fw: I'm trying to understand reasons for quotes and to give examples
osis-core@bibletechnologieswg.org
osis-core@bibletechnologieswg.org
Thu, 27 Jun 2002 08:33:29 -0400
Patrick,
Glad to see you joining in the challenge. And for me having a large set of
examples from NT and OT really does help clarify our answers. I hope to
work on providing this.
You may want to ask Ted Gollier from SIL Dallas for his work in identifying
"strange" events in typesetting. He is working on making lists of events
with reference to look in several major translations. Example for or five
different treatments for genealogy.
Jim Albright
704 843-0582
Wycliffe Bible Translators
|---------+------------------------------->
| | "Eric and Allison |
| | Albright" |
| | <eric-allison_albrig|
| | ht@sil.org> |
| | |
| | 06/27/2002 06:14 AM |
| | |
|---------+------------------------------->
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
| |
| To: "Patrick Durusau" <pdurusau@emory.edu> |
| cc: "osis-core" <osis-core@bibletechnologieswg.org>, <jim_albright@sil.org> |
| Subject: Re: Fw: I'm trying to understand reasons for quotes and to give examples |
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
Yes your example and explanation looks good.
Eric
----- Original Message -----
From: "Patrick Durusau" <pdurusau@emory.edu>
To: "Eric Albright" <eric_albright@sil.org>
Cc: "osis-core" <osis-core@bibletechnologieswg.org>; <jim_albright@sil.org>
Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 6:22 PM
Subject: Re: Fw: I'm trying to understand reasons for quotes and to give
examples
Eric,
I have copied your father with this post (noting that I deeply
appreciate your assistance and his in this effort!) to see if I am a
little closer to understanding <mentioned>.
Ephesians 2.11
<verse verseID="Ephesians.2.11">So then, remember that at one time you
Gentiles by birth, called "the uncircumcision" by those who are called
"the circumcision"--a physical circumcision made in the flesh by human
hands--</verse>
would be marked:
<verse verseID="Ephesians.2.11">So then, remember that at one time you
Gentiles by birth, called <mentioned>the uncircumcision</mentioned> by
those who are called <mentioned>the circumcision</mentioned>--a physical
circumcision made in the flesh by human hands--</verse>
In researching the source of my confusion on <mentioned> I found in
6.3.4 Terms, Glosses, and Cited Words of the TEI Guidelines:
> Other texts in which individual words or phrases are /mentioned/ (for
> example, as examples) rather than /used/ may mark them either with
> italics or with quotation marks, and will gloss them less regularly.
If I am understanding your examples, the <mentioned> phrase or word is
used by the speaker but they are quoting (in a sense) words in common
usage. It is the distinction between the words of the speaker versus the
words from common usage that <mentioned> is designed to capture. (They
are all still within whatever container has the entire discourse so we
know the speaker "said" these words but can also distinguish quotes from
common usage versus the speaker quoting some identified source.)
Yes, I can see that <quote> would be too clumsy a tool for that
distinction, although I think we will need to feed several of your
examples into the documentation in an attempt to get consistent usage.
Is this a little closer?
Patrick
Eric Albright wrote:
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Eric and Allison Albright" <eric-allison_albright@sil.org>
>To: "Jim Albright" <jim_albright@sil.org>
>Sent: Wednesday, May 29, 2002 10:52 PM
>Subject: Re: I'm trying to understand reasons for quotes and to give
examples
>
>
>Ephesians 4.10. Yes. Mentioned
>--What does [the phrase] "he ascended" mean except that he also descended
>to the lower, earthly regions.
>
>2 Corinthians 1.19. I think that is actually a quote here. Perhaps a
><socalled> around "Amen"
>
>1 Corinthians 10.24 Again, a quote.
>
>Mark 7.18 soCalled
>--"Don't you see that nothing that enters a man from the outside can make
>him
>[so-called] 'unclean'?
>
>Mark 7.19 tricky This has made me rethink the earlier response about God
>calling the light "day". I think they might be related although I don't
see
>here that you could add [the word] before it so I'm leaning towards
calling
>this soCalled. The author is not claiming responsibility for this. I don't
>think it works as a quote either. Then the question is whether the Genesis
>passage should also be soCalled. My gut tells me it is better as mentioned
>since you can't add the words [so-called] before it and make sense.
>--For it doesn't go into his heart but into his stomach, and then out of
his
>body." (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods "clean.")
>
>Luke 20.6 quote
>
>Reference? Yes. soCalled.
>--5 For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth
(as
>indeed there are many [so-called] "gods" and many [so-called] "lords"),
>
>Luke 15.2 Yes. soCalled.
>--Now the tax collectors and [so-called] "sinners" were all gathering
around
>to hear him.
>
>Ephesians 2.11 Yes. soCalled
>
>1TI 6.20 Yes. soCalled
>
>REV2.24 Yes soCalled
>
>1 Corinthians 1.21 Yes. soCalled.
>1 Corinthians 8.6 Yes. soCalled.
>1 Corinthians 8.10 Yes. soCalled.
>2 Corinthians 11.5 Yes. soCalled.
>
>yes to all examples of which means ..... translation of foreign word or
>phrase use <gloss>
>
>Looks good.
>
>Glad to see you are wrestling with some of the more interesting decisions.
>
>Eric
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: <Jim_Albright@sil.org>
>To: <eric_albright@sil.org>
>Sent: Tuesday, May 28, 2002 11:03 PM
>Subject: I'm trying to understand reasons for quotes and to give examples
>
>
>Looking for examples of mentioned. Is this one?
>
>(What does "he ascended" mean except that he also descended to the lower,
>earthly regions ? ? 4.10 NIV Ephesians 4.10 He who descended is the very
>one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole
>universe.)
>
>and these
>
>18 But as surely as God is faithful, our message to you is not "Yes" and
>"No." 1.19 NIV 2 Corinthians 1.19 For the Son of God, Jesus Christ, who
was
>preached among you by me and Silas ? and Timothy, was not "Yes" and "No,"
>but in him it has always been "Yes." 1.20 NIV 2 Corinthians 1.20 For no
>matter how many promises God has made, they are "Yes" in Christ. And so
>through him the "Amen" is spoken by us to the glory of God
>
>again
>
>23 "Everything is permissible"?but not everything is beneficial.
>"Everything is permissible"?but not everything is constructive. 10.24 NIV
1
>Corinthians 10.24 Nobody should seek his own good, but the good of others.
>
>and
>clean and unclean
>17 After he had left the crowd and entered the house, his disciples asked
>him about this parable. 7.18 NIV Mark 7.18 "Are you so dull?" he asked.
>"Don't you see that nothing that enters a man from the outside can make
him
>'unclean'? 7.19 NIV Mark 7.19 For it doesn't go into his heart but into
his
>stomach, and then out of his body." (In saying this, Jesus declared all
>foods "clean.")
>NIV Mark 7.20
>7.20 NIV Mark 7.20 He went on: "What comes out of a man is what makes him
>'unclean.' 7.21 NIV Mark 7.21 For from within, out of men's hearts, come
>evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, 7.22 NIV Mark
>7.22 greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly.
>7.23 NIV Mark 7.23 All these evils come from inside and make a man
>'unclean.' "
>7.24 The Faith of a Syrophoenician Woman
>
>what about hypothetical speech
>
>5 They discussed it among themselves and said, "If we say, 'From heaven,'
>he will ask, 'Why didn't you believe him?' 20.6 NIV Luke 20.6 But if we
>say, 'From men,' all the people will stone us, because they are persuaded
>that John was a prophet."
>NIV Luke 20.7
>
>
>so called? use <soCalled>
>5 For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as
>indeed there are many "gods" and many "lords"),
>
>Now the tax collectors and "sinners" were all gathering around to hear
>him. 15.2 NIV Luke 15.2 But the Pharisees and the teachers of the law
>muttered, "This man welcomes sinners and eats with them."
>NIV Luke 15.3
>
>another
>11 Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh?who are
>called "uncircumcision" by the so-called "circumcision" that is performed
>in the body t by hands? 2.12 NET Ephesians 2.12 that you were at that time
>without the Messiah, t alienated from the citizenship of Israel and
>strangers to the covenants of promise, t
>
>NET 1TI 6.20 O Timothy, protect what has been entrusted to you. Avoid t
the
>profane chatter and absurdities t of so-called "knowledge."
>
>NET REV2.24 But to the rest of you in Thyatira, all who do not hold to
this
>teaching s (who have not learned the so-called 'deep secrets t of Satan'),
>to you I say: I do not put any additional burden on you.
>
>Instead, by means of the so-called "foolish" message we preach, God
decided
>to save those who believe. 1.22 TEV 1 Corinthians 1.22 Jews want miracles
>for proof, and Greeks look for wisdom.
>
>5 Even if there are so-called "gods," whether in heaven or on earth, and
>even though there are many of these "gods" and "lords," 8.6 TEV 1
>Corinthians 8.6 yet there is for us only one God, the Father, who is the
>Creator of all things and for whom we live; and there is only one Lord,
>Jesus Christ, through whom all things were created and through whom
>we live.
>
>10 Suppose a person whose conscience is weak in this matter sees you, who
>have so-called "knowledge," eating in the temple of an idol; will not this
>encourage him to eat food offered to idols? 8.11 TEV 1 Corinthians 8.11
>
>
>11.5 TEV 2 Corinthians 11.5 I do not think that I am the least bit
>inferior to those very special so-called "apostles" of yours!
>
>which means ..... translation of foreign word or phrase use <gloss>
>
>(That is why the place was called Marah, which means "bitter.")
>NLT Exodus 15:24
>
> 6.32 NLT Judges 6.32 From then on Gideon was called Jerubbaal, which
means
>"Let Baal defend himself," because he knocked down Baal's altar.
>
>So David named that place Baal-perazim (which means "the Lord who bursts
>through").
>
> 11.34 TEV Numbers 11.34 That place was named Kibroth Hattaavah (which
>means "Graves of Craving"), because there they buried the people who had
>craved meat.
>
> 1.36 TEV 2 Maccabees 1.36 Nehemiah and his friends called the liquid
>nephthar, which means 'purification,' but most people call it 'naphtha.'
>
> 1.23 TEV Matthew 1.23 ? "A virgin will become pregnant and have a son,
>and he will be called Immanuel" (which means, "God is with us").
>
> 27.33 TEV Matthew 27.33 They came to a place called Golgotha, which
means,
>"The Place of the Skull."
>
> 27.46 TEV Matthew 27.46 ? At about three o'clock Jesus cried out with a
>loud shout, "Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?" which means, "My God, my God,
why
>did you abandon me?"
>
> 3.17 TEV Mark 3.17 James and his brother John, the sons of Zebedee (Jesus
>gave them the name Boanerges, which means "Men of Thunder");
>
> 5.41 TEV Mark 5.41 He took her by the hand and said to her, "Talitha,
>koum," which means, "Little girl, I tell you to get up!"
>
> 7.34 TEV Mark 7.34 Then Jesus looked up to heaven, gave a deep groan, and
>said to the man, "Ephphatha," which means, "Open up!"
>TEV Mark 7.35
>
> 15.22 TEV Mark 15.22 They took Jesus to a place called Golgotha, which
>means "The Place of the Skull."
>
> 15.34 TEV Mark 15.34 ? At three o'clock Jesus cried out with a loud
>shout, "Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachthani?" which means, "My God, my God, why
>did you abandon me?"
>
> 1.19 TEV Acts 1.19 All the people living in Jerusalem heard about it, and
>so in their own language they call that field Akeldama, which means "Field
>of Blood.")
>
>
>4.36 TEV Acts 4.36 And so it was that Joseph, a Levite born in Cyprus,
>whom the apostles called Barnabas (which means "One who Encourages"),
>
>7 NCV Hebrews 7.1 Melchizedek ? was the king of Salem and a priest for
>God Most High. He met Abraham when Abraham was coming back after defeating
>the kings. When they met, Melchizedek blessed Abraham, 7.2 NCV Hebrews
>7.2 and Abraham gave him a tenth of everything he had brought back from
the
>battle. First, Melchizedek's name means "king of goodness," and he is king
>of Salem, which means "king of peace."
>
>
>
>
>Jim Albright
>Wycliffe Bible Translators
>
>
>
>
>
>
--
Patrick Durusau
Director of Research and Development
Society of Biblical Literature
pdurusau@emory.edu