[osis-core] Option 1b and persenation of references and identifiers for quotes

[Todd Tillinghast]

In response to the post below:

I would prefer that the presentation id be derived from the references
present.  All of the presented references I have seen in print (which
may be a limited subset) could be derived from the set of "standard"
reference identifiers provided in a "list style" osisID coupled with the
information related to verse identifiers what are only partially
contained within the <verse> element.  From the following example it can
be derived that Matt.1.6 is partially contained in two verse elements
and the presentation generator can add the necessary "a" and "b" or
other preferred values as needed.

<verse osisID="Matt.1.1">...</verse>
<verse osisID="Matt.1.2 Matt.1.3 Matt.1.4 Matt.1.5 Matt.1.6"
logicalIDNext="Matt.1.6 Matt.1.7 Matt.1.8 Matt.1.9 Matt.1.10 Matt.1.11"
logicalIDSplitNext="Matt.1.6">...</verse>
<verse osisID="Matt.1.6 Matt.1.7 Matt.1.8 Matt.1.9 Matt.1.10 Matt.1.11"
logicalIDPrev="Matt.1.2 Matt.1.3 Matt.1.4 Matt.1.5 Matt.1.6"
logicalIDSplitPrev="Matt.1.6">...</verse>

This does presume that the reference system is split in a 2-dimentional
fashion not a 3-dimensional fashion.  LogicalID splits (segmentation of
the "standard" reference system) only have a prev and next dimension and
no splitting of "interior" identifiers.  Further there is no provision
segmentation in parallel universes (if verse ids for more than one
reference system (parallel universes) are provided as identifiers for a
verse then segmentation of verse identifiers from a single reference
system can be supported in a single verse. 

------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
OPTION 1B:

It could be possible to relax the above problems by a more general form
that provides fewer hints, but is SIMPLER and would support 3D
segmentation of reference systems as well as multiple reference systems,
but would make deriving a "presentation" reference value more difficult
in some cases but not impossible.  ("partialOsisID" is an attribute
indicating which verse identifiers are not wholely contained within the
<verse> element.  ANY identifier contained in the osisID could be in the
"partialOsisID" list.)

Example as follows:

<verse osisID="Matt.1.1">...</verse>
<verse osisID="Matt.1.2 Matt.1.3 Matt.1.4 Matt.1.5 Matt.1.6"
partialOsisID="Matt.1.6">...</verse>
<verse osisID="Matt.1.6 Matt.1.7 Matt.1.8 Matt.1.9 Matt.1.10 Matt.1.11"
partialOsisID="Matt.1.6">...</verse>

I prefer this to my earlier suggestion stated above, because it can also
support multiple systems if partialOsisID is a list.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
------------------------------------------------------------------------
---

And I continue to contend that presentationID is unnecessary, but also
know that the required algorithm to derive the exact value expected
could be complicated AND it is always possible for the
translator/publisher to have printed (or have a desire to print/render)
a work in which the presentation identifiers DEFY ALL logic.  In these
cases the ONLY way to preserve the content would be to provide an
optional "presentationID" attribute.  My hope would be that a
presentationID would not be encoded for every verse but only for
exception cases.  My fear with providing a presentationID attribute is
that it will be used/abused as a self-identifier in place of the osisID.
But if we don't provide the attribute then encoders will likely use the
"ID" attribute to the same end.


IDENTIFIERS FOR QUOTES
As suggested below, encoders will be tempted to "self-identify" <verse>
elements that are also quotes from other works with the
"self-identifier" that the quoted text would be identified by in its
source work (assuming the source work has a canonical reference system).
It seems that this purpose should be accomplished with a <reference>
element with an appropriate type attribute to specify that the <q>
element that contains the <reference> element is a quote of the
referenced text.  This could also be accomplished with a <note> element
with a <reference> element.  There is no way to prevent encoders from
self-identifying a <verse> with a quote in it with an identifier from
the quoted reference system, but it should be viewed as an incorrect
encoding.  Further the more precise making would be at the <q> level
rather than at the <verse> level.


Thoughts?

Todd


> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-osis-core@bibletechnologieswg.org [mailto:owner-osis-
> core@bibletechnologieswg.org] On Behalf Of Steve DeRose
> Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2002 11:38 AM
> To: osis-core@bibletechnologieswg.org
> Subject: RE: [osis-core] Wrapping up?
> 
> At 09:47 PM -0600 07/22/02, Todd Tillinghast wrote:
> ...
> 
> >  > > <verse osisID="Bible.Todd:Mark.1.1-9" altIDs="Mark.1.1 Mark.1.2
> >Mark.1.3
> >  > > Mark.1.4 Mark.1.5 Mark.1.6 Mark.1.7 Mark.1.8
Mark.1.9">....</verse>
> 
> I had been refraining from raising the issue of where to put the form
> the translator wants *displayed*, but this example got me thinking of
> it.
> 
> I'm not sure we've explicitly determined whether we expect software
> to create display forms of reference markers from the attributes.
> Since we didn't provide any tag for putting it in content, that seems
> reasonable.
> 
> In that case, we could make the above example more palatable (I
> think) by renaming:
> 
> <verse displayID="Bible.Todd:Mark.1.1-9" osisIDs="Mark.1.1 Mark.1.2
> Mark.1.3 Mark.1.4 Mark.1.5 Mark.1.6 Mark.1.7 Mark.1.8
> Mark.1.9">....</verse>
> 
> It's still a little ugly, but less so than 9 pairs of co-indexed
> milestones. And we can use the same mechanism to allow putting
> identifiers from multiple reference systems on the same element
> (you'd have to prefix the ref sys name of course).
> 
> This also buys us the absolutely indispensible and crucial case
> (yeah, right) of where Paul quotes Epimenides of Crete (about all
> Cretans being gluttons etc): one can imagine someone wanting to mark
> this both as being Titus 1:12, and as being some reference in one of
> Epimenides' works (none of which, sadly, have survived -- but maybe
> someone will dig up a manuscript someday, or assign canonical ids to
> the fragments we have). Paul apparently also quotes Aratus (
> Acts.17.28 ) and Menander ( 1Cor.15.33 ).
> 
> Hmmmm
> 
> --
> 
> Steve DeRose -- http://www.stg.brown.edu/~sjd
> Chair, Bible Technologies Group -- http://www.bibletechnologies.net
> Email: sderose@speakeasy.net
> Backup email: sjd@stg.brown.edu