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Male mdbergmann
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Re: German Menge-Bibel

Btw: DBG already sells a module for Accordance in their web shop.


Manfred
[Oct 6, 2010 11:02:09 PM] Show Printable Version of Post    View Member Profile    Send Private Message    Hidden to Guest [Link] Report threatening or abusive post: please login first  Go to top 
Male moharasij
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Re: German Menge-Bibel

And they already have the infrastructure to sell the modules so I don't see a problem there.

I think I didn't make that point clear enough. The problem is not that they have to sell the modules on their web shop, but that they will get support requests for the modules because they are the ones that would sell them.

Still a sad thing though.
[Oct 7, 2010 11:46:03 PM] Show Printable Version of Post    View Member Profile    Send Private Message [Link] Report threatening or abusive post: please login first  Go to top 
Male alvanx
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Re: German Menge-Bibel

I wrote them on Sunday (10/10), still waiting for an answer:

Sehr geehrte Frau Raiser,

Bitte verzeihen Sie mir eine Frage zur Menge-Bibel. Ich weiß, dass ich
nicht der erste bin, der nach deren Urheberrecht fragt, aber um alles
richtig zu machen, würde ich es gerne einmal genauer wissen.

Auf frühere Anfragen aus der Open-Source-Gemeinschaft hat die Deutsche
Bibelgesellschaft - nach meinen Informationen - bisher verlauten lassen,
dass der Text der Menge-Bibel zwar ab 1. Januar 2010 gemeinfrei sei, die
Bibelgesellschaft allerdings ein Urheberrecht auf das elektronische
Layout der Bibel halte, wie sie z.B. auf www.bibelwissenschaft.de zu
finden ist. Folglich untersagt die DBG die Verwendung ihres
digitalisierten Textes. Allerdings stammt mein Wissen aus zweiter Hand,
deshalb ist es möglich, dass ich das Problem missverstanden habe.

Meine Frage betrifft nun die Natur dieses Urheberrechts. Als
juristischer Laie mit Leidenschaft für die Bibel habe ich mich zwar mit
dem Urheberrecht befasst (es auf anwendbare Klauseln sowie einige
Urteile durchsucht), jedoch keine Stelle gefunden, die den Text nur
durch seine Darstellung auf der Webseite unter Ihr Urheberrecht stellt.
Im Gegenteil scheint es so, als dass ein auf einer Webseite verwendeter
fremder Text, auch wenn er in einem rechtlich geschützten Rahmen
verwendet wird, seinen separaten rechtlichen Status behält; in diesem
Fall würde das also bedeuten, dass auch der Text der Bibel von Hermann
Menge auf Ihrer Webseite gemeinfrei ist.

Deshalb wundert mich (wie gesagt, als juristischen Laien): Wie begründen
Sie Ihr Recht, die Verwendung des digitalen Textes zu untersagen?
Hoffentlich haben Sie Verständnis für meine Frage.

Ich bedanke mich im Voraus für Ihre Antwort!

Mit freundlichen Grüßen,

*Mein Name*


Hope you German speakers reading this don't think I was being inappropriate.

To summarize: I asked for the legal reasoning behind their restriction of the text on the DBG website. Specifically, I mentioned that my research has led me to the conclusion that the licence of the text should not change no matter what it is integrated in (except if it is edited significantly, but we're talking about layout here).
[Oct 13, 2010 7:39:26 AM] Show Printable Version of Post    View Member Profile    Send Private Message [Link] Report threatening or abusive post: please login first  Go to top 
Male alvanx
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Re: German Menge-Bibel

(This was meant as one long post, but apparently there is a restriction on post length.)

What I found out is this (and I only mentioned my conclusions in my email):
1. problem: According to German copyright, it is not clear whether a website is a simple document or an actual piece of software. There are specific laws for software and there are specific laws for written text, but nothing for websites. In any case, however, formatting a text with html (or whatever) should not give an organization any copyright claims (let alone restricting its use). As aforementioned, copyrighted can only be something that is actually a creative piece of work. Simple thoughts don't count, and non-creative work doesn't count either.
2. problem: A website layout could be copyrighted if it was decided that a website was software (which, and don't take my word for granted, the paper that I read deemed the less likely). However, this would only be the case if the software was rather complex and actually was a creative work (excluding the ideas the work is based on). Simple text on a website doesn't match that criteria for me.
3. problem: A layout could be copyrighted under these conditions only if it wouldn't be a basic solution that anyone doing the same task would come to. The GUI of a software would probably be copyrightable. Adding html headings to a text would probably not. I'm not sure how this would apply to the presentation of the Menge-Bibel on www.bibelwissenschaft.de, but I don't see a lot of creative work there.
4. problem: Even if a website including the layout of the text were copyrighted - that would only mean we wouldn't be allowed to use the specific chosen text layout. I haven't found any evidence that this would change the copyright of the text; it would still be in the public domain. We would, I believe, be able to use the raw material and even format it similarly in a module because that is how the original text was laid out in the first place. (Maybe in the situation that there was a copyright it might not be ok to use that material and work it back into the original layout.)


Conclusion: If I am not substantially underestimating the design effort that went into the website and severely misunderstanding German copyright law, or if I am not underestimating the amount of editorial work that went into their electronic text, in all humility I conclude that they don't have any claims on it, their text should be in the public domain, and they have no right to restrict its use for the simple reason that they digitalized it.

And even if it were not freely distributable, we would still be able to use the Zefania XML text for the simple reason that we do not know where it is from. You can't be held liable for infringing copyright on the internet unawares according to German copyright law, unless it is obviously illegally-obtained material. This refers to stuff like watching a movie online that is still in theaters, but not to a text that is in the public domain and could technically come from anywhere. Of course if it was clear or proven that the Menge-Bibel text WAS copied from the DBG website by the Zefania people AND that this was an illegal act, we WOULD infringe the law.


I will keep you posted on what I hear back. My fear is that I might not hear back either because they simply don't have easy access to their copyright information, or because they don't want us to know that they might be wrong. But for now, I am trying to hope the best and assume that they are working on it.
[Oct 13, 2010 7:40:55 AM] Show Printable Version of Post    View Member Profile    Send Private Message [Link] Report threatening or abusive post: please login first  Go to top 
Male alvanx
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Re: German Menge-Bibel

So after I had asked a second time a few weeks back, also telling them about this thread, I received the following reply a few day ago.

Sehr geehrter Herr ***,

vielen Dank für Ihre Anfrage, für die wir selbstverständlich Verständnis haben. Grundsätzlich ist unsere Typographie der Menge-Bibel geschützt, was sich natürlich v.a. auf das gedruckte Buch bezieht. Die Menge Bibel gab es ursprünglich ja nur in Fraktur Schrift; 1994 wurde sie von der DBG in Antiqua-Schrift herausgegeben und gleichzeitig wurde die Rechtschreibung und Zeichensetzung dem gegenwärtigen Standard angeglichen (in neuer Rechtschreibung gibt es sie allerdings nicht). Unsere digitalisierte Form beruht auf dem Neusatz von 1994. Die gedruckte und die digitalisierte Version kann natürlich abgeschrieben werden. Bei der digitalisierten Version kann zudem wohl nicht ausgeschlossen werden, dass sie mühsam kopiert und in anderer Form herausgebracht wird.

Herzliche Grüße,
*Name*


What she says is that the DBG typography of the Menge bible - and thus the printed layout - is copyright-protected. This is something I never thought about, admittedly. The German Bible Society upgraded the font as well as orthography in 1994. After that she says that the printed and digitalized versions may be copied by hand (which already is a legal free way to copy copyrighted work according to German (EU?) copyright law). The last sentence goes "It can not be excluded [as a possibility, I she refers to the DBG] that the digital version could be strenuously copied and published in a different form."

So what does that mean? She said the typography of the Bible is protected. Does typography include orthography? That is, is she referring to the print layout as being protected or actually the entire text as maintained by the DBG - because orthography is protected too?

Researching "typography" on Wikipedia takes me to the article Schutz typographisch gesetzter Texte that specifies that basically only font faces can be copyrighted when it comes to typography. The last couple of sentences state:
Gemeinfreie Literatur muss nach dem Ablauf der Schutzfrist frei verbreitet werden dürfen. Der typographische Aufwand des Verlags stellt in Deutschland keinen Hinderungsgrund etwa für nicht-gewerbliche freie Projekte wie Wikisource dar, Scans moderner Ausgaben im Internet zu veröffentlichen. Voraussetzung ist natürlich, dass die Ausgaben keinen Schutz nach den §§ 70 (Wissenschaftliche Ausgaben), 71 (editio princeps) UrhG genießen.


This clearly states that even if the text was slightly updated and reprinted, non-commercial projects can use it to publish it freely online. Unless it is a scientific edition, for which the law says:
(1) Ausgaben urheberrechtlich nicht geschützter Werke oder Texte werden in entsprechender Anwendung der Vorschriften des Teils 1 geschützt, wenn sie das Ergebnis wissenschaftlich sichtender Tätigkeit darstellen und sich wesentlich von den bisher bekannten Ausgaben der Werke oder Texte unterscheiden.


There is not a major difference in this edition nor should scholarly activity have been necessary to update the orthography.

Conclusion: It is hard for me to understand how even the print layout of the Menge bible should be protected - at least regarding our purposes.

(I apologize if this is kind of hard to follow for those who don't speak German! ;-) )

I'm going to ask her to clarify on that. If there is no copyright and she already answered to my reply, there is no reason not to try and clarify.
[Nov 12, 2010 10:24:03 AM] Show Printable Version of Post    View Member Profile    Send Private Message [Link] Report threatening or abusive post: please login first  Go to top 
Male JesusUndMohammed
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Re: German Menge-Bibel on iPhone?

Researching "typography" on Wikipedia takes me to the article Schutz typographisch gesetzter Texte that specifies that basically only font faces can be copyrighted when it comes to typography. The last couple of sentences state:
Gemeinfreie Literatur muss nach dem Ablauf der Schutzfrist frei verbreitet werden dürfen. Der typographische Aufwand des Verlags stellt in Deutschland keinen Hinderungsgrund etwa für nicht-gewerbliche freie Projekte wie Wikisource dar, Scans moderner Ausgaben im Internet zu veröffentlichen. Voraussetzung ist natürlich, dass die Ausgaben keinen Schutz nach den §§ 70 (Wissenschaftliche Ausgaben), 71 (editio princeps) UrhG genießen.


Hello everybody!

I'm from Germany, too, and would love too see the MENGE translation for PocketSword on my iPhone! cool

I don't understand what is the problem since it is in the open domain and the DBG can not tell why it is forbidden.

Maybe they only want to earn a maximum of money through their OLIVETREE BibleReader for iPhone modul!? http://www.olivetree.com/store/product.php?productid=16624

I already bought this modul for my Windows Smartphone:
http://www.bibelonline.de/products/Bibelsoftw...r-Palm-und-Pocket-PC.html

Hope?
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[Edit 3 times, last edit by JesusUndMohammed at Nov 25, 2010 10:22:39 AM]
[Nov 25, 2010 9:44:55 AM] Show Printable Version of Post    View Member Profile    Send Private Message [Link] Report threatening or abusive post: please login first  Go to top 
Male alvanx
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Re: German Menge-Bibel on iPhone?

There is actually no problem. What there was is there was a misunderstanding - because some guy had once asked if the text was copyrighted and the answer had been misleading; and also nobody ever took the trouble to research if this could be true.

Today I received the definite answer:
[...] Auf jeden Fall können wir Ihnen in der Tat nicht verbieten, die Menge-Bibel von unseren Internet-Seiten (www.die-bibel.de oder www.bibelwissenschaft.de) zu kopieren und in anderer Weise im Internet zu verwenden. [...]


For those of us who somehow never learned or forgot all of their German: She said they can't prohibit us from copying their text.

The Menge-Bibel-Text from "www.die-bibel.de" is in the public domain and may be freely copied. I advise some of you fine module developers out there to come up with an official module very soon - I guarantee you, it would be popular!


@JesusundMohammed (interesting nick btw), if you want a homebrew module made from a source that the module developers here consider not trustworthy ( ;-) ), check here.
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by alvanx at Nov 25, 2010 2:41:03 PM]
[Nov 25, 2010 2:18:58 PM] Show Printable Version of Post    View Member Profile    Send Private Message [Link] Report threatening or abusive post: please login first  Go to top 
Male mdbergmann
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Re: German Menge-Bibel on iPhone?

Chris, could you please give your comment about how to proceed with this?
If we proceed then I'd rather not take the sources from the Zefania project but try to get them elsewhere.


Manfred
[Nov 27, 2010 5:31:53 AM] Show Printable Version of Post    View Member Profile    Send Private Message    Hidden to Guest [Link] Report threatening or abusive post: please login first  Go to top 
Male JesusUndMohammed
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applause German Menge-Bibel on iPhone - works! :-)

Today I received the definite answer:
The Menge-Bibel-Text from "www.die-bibel.de" is in the public domain and may be freely copied.


Haleluja! Great News! I love the DBG and the German Law on "public domain" stufft! cool

I advise some of you fine module developers out there to come up with an official module very soon - I guarantee you, it would be popular!

I totally agree! I think the only thing why the Menge-Bible is not to common in Germany is that it costs 50 EUR in paper form today!

@JesusundMohammed (interesting nick btw), if you want a homebrew module made from a source that the module developers here consider not trustworthy ( ;-) ), check here.


Thanks a lot! I was able to install the bible to my iPhone/iPod Touch very easy:

The .conf file should be copied into the folder "mods.d" and the folder containing the module into "modules/texts/ztext/".

On iPhone Explorer go to:
iPod_8GB/Apps/org.Crosswire.PocketSword/Documents/mods.d
iPod_8GB/Apps/org.Crosswire.PocketSword/Documents/modules/texts


Off topic:
My nic "Jesus und Mohammed" is the title of a great german book (English version here ) that is pointing to the big difference there is between these two founders of their religions!

The country song with the same name shows the need for that clarifying book. ISLAM is not PEACE at all - but these Country lady didn't know...
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by JesusUndMohammed at Nov 27, 2010 2:47:31 PM]
[Nov 27, 2010 2:34:13 PM] Show Printable Version of Post    View Member Profile    Send Private Message [Link] Report threatening or abusive post: please login first  Go to top 
Male alvanx
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Re: German Menge-Bibel on iPhone - works! :-)

OT:
@JesusundMohammed: Good explanation! You should be aware that your nick might be misleading to some. ;-)
[Nov 29, 2010 6:27:10 AM] Show Printable Version of Post    View Member Profile    Send Private Message [Link] Report threatening or abusive post: please login first  Go to top 
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